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Converting 14 to 16
Posted: 04 Dec 2005, 12:50
by Diamond Hell
I was thinking about this the other day. I've got this 'velle GL that I've got various things that I'm doing to. While I've got it stripped down surely it wouldn't take much to convert it to a 16, would it ?
Unless I'm mistaken it's only really a few suspension parts that are changed, a few plates welded over some of the body voids, to stiffen it up and the arches are cut back a bit?
The only issue is, what benefits would it really give me over a 14 running 15" rims? I guess the longer trailing arms would allow bigger wheels and tyres to be fitted, but then I could modify 14" arms to take larger tyres, too. With the bodywork voids plated over it would stiffen the chassis, but I've never felt that the T25 body was particularly sloppy anyway and adding steel = adding weight which is never good off road.
I guess parts would be more expensive in some situations, too and isn't the point of having a 16 have a nice, rare VW, rather than having a vehicle with 16" rims?!
What do you think, people? Oooooooh, let's have a poll shall we?
Posted: 04 Dec 2005, 13:13
by missusjen
Wouldn't it just be easier, and cheaper, to just buy a 16"??
I honestly can't see the point in going to all that bother - you don't know how stable the new 'cut and shut' van would be until you'd tested it for ages, and just adding a few bits won't make it a 'real 16"' at all.......
in my opinion......
Posted: 04 Dec 2005, 13:18
by Mudlark
Id be more inclined to find an original 16" but thats probably because the thought of doing all that work leaves me cold !
Does a 16 get anywhere a 15 cant? i doubt it; so my feeling is that the point of having the 16 is that in the world of T25's its just that bit more 'special' and rarer than a 14" syncro.
Posted: 04 Dec 2005, 13:42
by bigbluebus
The 16" version differs from the 14" in a lot of details. To follow the flow of the manufacturing process we have to start with the bodywork. As the T3 Van has no seperate chassis-frame, additional reinforcements had to be integrated into the bodywork sheet-metal structure. This means thicker or more rigid material for the b-column, the shock-absorber flanges, suspension hinges. Gear-box and transmisions may differ from the 14" in their ratio according to the engine version in combination with options like high-roof etc. A rear diff-lock was included in the package, for some countries even the front diff-lock. There are e.g. also some special air tubes for the transmission and friction housing in order to avoid to sucking water while wading. The front suspension of the later models was changed from welded sheet-metal to a more rigid and corrosion-resistent steel-cast part, the CV-joints are covered by a special PUR protection shield. The rear half-axles have a bigger flange-diameter (108 instead of 100 mm). The filling of the visco-coupling is said to be slightly different in order to accelerate its traction control function. The 16'' package includes also enlarged brakes from the VW LT 3,5t light-truck - conventional drums at the rear, 280 mm disk-brakes in front. Factory tire size was 195 R 16, the 205 R 16 or 7.00 x 16 were also available with a new car, aftermarket suppliers enlarged the choice up to 31x10,5x16 or 245/75 R 16. Clearance between rear-suspension and the 16" tires seemed insufficient, so a modified suspension was designed, which also enlarged the wheelbase for another 20mm. More clearance is the reason for the modified wheel-wells. As the sheet-metal would otherwise interfere with the enlarged tires, the 'fenders' are modified and covered with these typical black extensions molded in polyurethane
stolen from vanagon.com, hope they don't mind
Posted: 04 Dec 2005, 14:10
by HarryMann
but I've never felt that the T25 body was particularly sloppy anyway and adding steel = adding weight which is never good off road.
Nor have I, but the weight addition would be minimal. Mayeb think more whether any of the body mods were not so much stiffening mods as actually to strengthen in case of rollover?
Biggest headache... enlarged drive flanges and shafts?
Easiest thing to forget... enlarged brakes and wheels increase unsprung weight
higher forces through suspension, shockers having to work harder
less sure-footed when driven quickly on tarmac.
BBB... some of those quoted are std on 14's too, but didn't know about the front subframe strengthening (as a consequence of above)
Posted: 04 Dec 2005, 15:26
by matt
Bu66er engineering for a hobby
Just drive the things!!!!
hard
they aint for a museum yet......and shows are "pooh"
Posted: 05 Dec 2005, 08:10
by toomanytoys
My eurocentworth (not that it will count for much with Mr T... as I dont actually drive one
..)
Is if you want a 16 get a 16.. if you are gonna make a 14 to 16.. make it whatever.. as while all those 16 mods are good.. even that can be improved.. (Syncromog!!!) even more ground clearance and suspension travel..
But prob biggest problem will be gearing, unless you can get a TD 16 set of ring and pinions!! or the very ultra rare low option (6.12 or summat), Oh... assuming its to play off road and not a Chelsea tractor!!!
Si
Posted: 07 Dec 2005, 10:48
by syncroand101
SO, what you doing DH?
Are you going to beef up your 14" and make a fake 16"?
Or just keep a 14"?
Posted: 07 Dec 2005, 11:03
by Diamond Hell
Converting a 14 to a 16 seems an utter, utter waste of time. The value of a 16 is in their genuine-ness and rare-ness.
Modifying the structure of buses should be left to professionals, like Russel who have the skillz, extensive knowledge of the structure and facilities to do a proper job.
I was priviledged to be at Syncronutz only the other day and got to see one of Russel's projects - a substantially modified 14" with huge tyres on it - the best of it was that it had been so subtly modified you couldn't see what had been changed until Russel pointed it out!
And before anyone asks, no I don't have any photos, I had better things to do with my time when I was there than hang around shooting buses.
This doesn't mean I won't be installing strengthening plates over body voids etc on future projects. Obviously the stiffer a bus is, the better it will handle.
Posted: 07 Dec 2005, 12:08
by missusjen
You may not have any photo's - but I have.......
Is this like F1 though? Would Russel be annoyed if his unfinished project was viewed......
Posted: 07 Dec 2005, 12:12
by Diamond Hell
Yes. I would have thought so.
Although it's not going to show how it was done, is it...... I'm sure Russel will speak up in due course.....
Posted: 07 Dec 2005, 13:16
by Russel
Put them up because i dont know how.
Posted: 07 Dec 2005, 13:38
by missusjen
No! I won't! I've decided to keep my photo's to myself.......so ner......
(didn't actually get a clear side on shot of the full van anyway, and it'd be a shame to unveil it before it's finished.......
)
Posted: 07 Dec 2005, 15:30
by Cate
Seems a stupid waste of time to go converting something that is already around and obtainable to something else that is already around and obtainable.
So, the question is why? apart to show what a smart a*** you are! but that would only be relevant at the total finish of the project, and would the sale value really reflect the work put into it, and would people trust it enough?
To modify a little is fine, to over-modify is daft. Only my opinion.
Posted: 07 Dec 2005, 18:33
by Russel
The most important thing always to remember when modifying a vehicle
is there will ALWAYS be a nock on effect somewhere else.The more u change for offroading the less (safe)performance on road.Bigger engine or TDI will affect gearing.Bigger wheels affect suspension and so on and so on.
Changing a 14 into a 16 isnt difficult just pointless.Any body with good syncro experience will be able to tell.
It will never have the same value and if sold as a 16 it is fraud.
When modifying ure vans just always remember it is not just ure own safety u are affecting but anyone else on or of the road u drive past.