Club 80-90 Forums

I've had my T25 for around three and a half years now, and the whole time up to a week ago it was always difficult to start on it's awful pierberg carb. Towards the end the carb also decided to stop working altogether on several occasions which resulted in me getting to know my local AA man on first name terms. Not good.
The pierberg was stripped down, cleaned and fiddled with a lot but the problems kept coming back. I finally gave in and bought a pair of ICT34 webers plus a full fitting kit from Eurocarb. I was very unsure about this mod because, while this set up seems to be de rigueur for air cooled engines, I'd never come across it on a water cooled engine before. Anyway, it said 1.9 water cooled T25 on the box so I went ahead and got it fitted by my local garage.
I wish I'd done the above from day one when I bought the van and decided to bin the pierberg one day, but kept on struggling with the pierberg because of the cost of a conversion. The carb kit cost just shy of £500 and fitting was £200, but the results make it well worth the money. Emissions are dead on spec, performance is noticeably up, surprisingly the noise in the cabin is now down, and most important of all the van fires up first turn of the key every time hot or cold. It's been well worth the money for the peace of mind alone, and although it's cost me one friend (my AA man) I'd recommend this mod to any T25 owner struggling with a pierberg carb.

Out of interest, what's fuel consumption like now? I guess you can't compare your previous carb if it wasn't running properly but I'd be interested in what you think it's now doing

Sorry, the conversion is only just over a week old and as my mileage is less than 2k/yr, mainly in the summer, I'm afraid it'll be some time before I know mpg.
Before I was getting high 20's mpg, and based on my online research of weber conversions I expect a little worse (mid 20's maybe?), but with my annual mileage I'm not too bothered what it turns out to be.

I'm pleased you are happy with your carb but you could have had a brand new Pierburg for less, just sayin.

I was thinking the same, Paul! I suspect the improvement may be down to the old carb being bad, in which case keeping it Pierburg may have given equal or better results.
Interesting it starts well, though. I heard they could be tricky from cold as no chokes.

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ajsimmo wrote:I was thinking the same, Paul! I suspect the improvement may be down to the old carb being bad, in which case keeping it Pierburg may have given equal or better results.
Interesting it starts well, though. I heard they could be tricky from cold as no chokes.

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I've owned four cars in the past equipped with twin webers, three Elans and a Dutton kit car. They were all brilliant starters from cold and a choke wasn't needed. You just have to pump the throttle pedal two or three times, spin the engine, and it fires up. Hold the pedal down a bit to keep it ticking over for a minute or so then drive off normally.
Perhaps this sounds overly complicated, but give me the dependability of webers any day than having to rely on a pierburg with its awful autochoke and poor reputation for reliability.

I've found the opposite to be true. Never had issues with pierbergs other than a gasket kit needed after so many years. Before that, the Solex's were equally reliable. Thats 30 years working on all the v-dubs and probably a thousand or more I've worked on. Webers on the other hand are such a pig to set up and once they go off tune, it can be a nightmare to sort them out - multiplied by the owner fitting a 009 dizzy. Horses for courses but I have to agree with Andy on this - the stock carb in good fettle is a good compromise between power and economy and gives years of trouble-free motoring.

Its possible to end up with a stock carb that has issues you've not solved, but I've not been beaten by one yet.

CovKid wrote:I've found the opposite to be true. Never had issues with pierbergs other than a gasket kit needed after so many years. Before that, the Solex's were equally reliable. Thats 30 years working on all the v-dubs and probably a thousand or more I've worked on. Webers on the other hand are such a pig to set up and once they go off tune, it can be a nightmare to sort them out - multiplied by the owner fitting a 009 dizzy. Horses for courses but I have to agree with Andy on this - the stock carb in good fettle is a good compromise between power and economy and gives years of trouble-free motoring.

Its possible to end up with a stock carb that has issues you've not solved, but I've not been beaten by one yet.

Each to their own I suppose. I envy you your good experience with Pierburgs, but I didn't invent their poor reputation, it's all over the internet, and the very fact that Eurocarb market a Weber replacement kit for the T25, perhaps one of the few or the only such conversion not directed at the "boy racer" after market is testament to this. I have to admit that I'm not a carb expert so I defer to your wider experience.

There a couple of excellent videos on stripping down and refurbishing pierbergs. Theres not a lot to go wrong to be honest. In my experience Webers are often fitted in the belief that it will somehow completely transform performance - likewise with 009 dizzys, myths that have perpetuated the VW scene for as long as I can remember and capitalised on by those that sell them. What will undoubtedly increase is fuel consumption and on something as thirsty as the relatively small stock engines VW fitted, and fuel prices going up again, this isn't good news. Twin carbs are far more efficient but to be honest, more and more owners are swapping out their engines for more modern ones to increase fuel efficiency and reliability.

I've always been a fan of the agricultural boxer engine (which it is) but even I have to accept its had its day. You have to do so much to the engine to make it breathe properly, and good rebuilt units cost a fortune now.

Don't get me wrong, a Weber can be set up to run ok but a good second-hand pierburg can be bought for peanuts. Its also worth bearing in mind that not all problems seemingly related to the carb, prove to be the case. If you're not familiar with these engines, it can be an expensive and sometimes fruitless pursuit trying to fix a problem by swapping everything out, when for say £25 you can pick up another carb and be out having fun again.

john east wrote:

CovKid wrote:I've found the opposite to be true. Never had issues with pierbergs other than a gasket kit needed after so many years. Before that, the Solex's were equally reliable. Thats 30 years working on all the v-dubs and probably a thousand or more I've worked on. Webers on the other hand are such a pig to set up and once they go off tune, it can be a nightmare to sort them out - multiplied by the owner fitting a 009 dizzy. Horses for courses but I have to agree with Andy on this - the stock carb in good fettle is a good compromise between power and economy and gives years of trouble-free motoring.

Its possible to end up with a stock carb that has issues you've not solved, but I've not been beaten by one yet.

Each to their own I suppose. I envy you your good experience with Pierburgs, but I didn't invent their poor reputation, it's all over the internet, and the very fact that Eurocarb market a Weber replacement kit for the T25, perhaps one of the few or the only such conversion not directed at the "boy racer" after market is testament to this. I have to admit that I'm not a carb expert so I defer to your wider experience.

Pierburgs were fitted to many many makes of cars because of reliability/emissions.
Your carb was over 30 years old.
The weber was new?
Pierburgs can be repaired to their original state for less than the cost of a weber.

I'm currently running a set of Weber ICT' 34's on my 2.1 DJ but after driving a nicely set up 1.9 DG i fancy a move over to a pierberg. All I can say is that yes it starts first time every time but it's lumpy at low revs and can be a handful in slow moving traffic although it does picks up nicely on acceleration and cruises effortlessly at 60 -70 MPH. Fuel consumption is mid teens round town and mid twenties on a long run at no more than 60 MPH. I might have got high twenties when i first had them set up on a rolling road but found that they need to be constantly fettled for emissions testing at MOT time so I am assuming that they are no longer as efficient as they should be.

I think sometimes its about being correctly matched. The 009 dizzy isn't matched for instance. The curve is all advanced which means all you can do is set it up for maximum advance to avoid pinking and hope that everything in between will "just do". In practice it is completely unsuited to wasserboxers - at least without extensive engine work, despite the fact it is often incorrectly marketed/sold as a replacement. At best its a "get you home" solution.

Carbs are similar. The pierberg fitted as standard was jetted and tuned to suit and works in harmony with the distributor to achieve fairly good performance across the range. Obviously if the carb, Weber or otherwise, isn't correctly jetted or otherwise not set up for the engine, it'll have problems somewhere in the range of throttle openings and without a rolling road it is all complete guesswork. Change either (carb or dizzy) and they will impact each other making tuning very difficult.

I replaced my twin Solex carbs with new Weber ICT34s and agree with the OP. But I was obviously comparing 30year old carbs with brand new carbs.

Had them fitted for two years now and not a single issue. Performance and reliability are reassuringly great. Not a clue about mpg as I am really not that bothered!

Mike

Just thought I'd post an update on my Weber conversion.

It's been a couple of weeks now, and I've got accustomed to the van with the new carbs. I can confirm my earlier impressions, it's not just better, it's a vast improvement. The engine runs more smoothly than before, has significantly more power, and my impression which was much to my initial surprise, that it's a lot quieter on the road, has been confirmed by my wife who made a similar, and unsolicited observation yesterday.

However, the greatest improvement, and the whole reason for this exercise is the transformation in starting. Gone are the fears, "Will it, or won't it start today.", and "I hope there's enough charge in the battery to start it this morning." 100% of the time it now fires first turn of the key, even after standing for several days at sub-zero temperatures.

To the Pierburg proponents on this thread, I'm sure what you say about your preferred carb when it's in good nick is usually true. However, mine had 106,000 miles under its belt, which doesn't sound too excessive to me, and I had it stripped down and serviced, all to no avail. So persevering with this option was costing me money for no benefit. Perhaps I could have saved a few bob fitting a new Pierburg, but the last thing I'd want to inflict on myself is another auto-choke.