Club 80-90 Forums

My starter has always been perfectly reliable - until yesterday. I stalled the van reversing out of the workshop at Campershack, went to restart it and got nothing but a click. After a couple of turns of the key with nothing but the click it suddenly kicked into life and started the engine as normal.

Today I had a different issue - I turned the starter over, the engine turned but didn't start (that's not the issue here, as I'd been fiddling with the throttle cable and choke mechanism), but the starter continued to turn even after the key was turned back - just the motor, as it had already disengaged from the starter ring. It's done the same thing a couple more times since. Once it's in this condition I can't stop the motor spinning - turning the key again makes no difference - but fortunately after a few seconds it stops by itself.

This may or may not be related. On a trip out this evening I noticed that the engine charge light and the coolant light just started to glow when I got up to higher speeds. Coolant temperature is fine according to the temperature gauge, but charging voltage was a bit low with the lights on ~12.2V.

So what's going on? Bad earth? Faulty starter?

I'd say bad earth and possibly ignition barrel

Are you saying that you think the starter (pinion) gear is disengaging from the flywheel, but that the starter motor is still turning?
If this is the case, then it sounds like the starter solenoid is 'mechanically' faulty - it should be the solenoid that (mechanically) breaks the power supply to the starter motor once it disengages the pinion gear.

What work did you have done whilst it was in the garage?

I had all sorts of electrical issues when I refitted the gearbox. After lots of head scratching it turned out the earth strap from the gearbox to the body.

MidLifeCrisis wrote:Are you saying that you think the starter (pinion) gear is disengaging from the flywheel, but that the starter motor is still turning?

Yes, that's what's happening. It continues to spin for several seconds before eventually shutting off by itself - as I say, there's nothing I can do to intervene, short of getting my spanner out to disconnect the battery. Would a faulty solenoid also explain yesterday's symptom, where the starter didn't fire at all and I just got a click from the direction of the starter? Is it something I can service myself, or am I looking at a replacement?

ninja.turtle007 wrote:What work did you have done whilst it was in the garage?

I'm pretty sure this is just a coincidence - the work I had done was on the carb and the valves - nothing near the wiring underneath.

ninja.turtle007 wrote: I had all sorts of electrical issues when I refitted the gearbox. After lots of head scratching it turned out the earth strap from the gearbox to the body.

armyphil wrote:I'd say bad earth and possibly ignition barrel

I wonder if a faulty earth could cause these problems with the solenoid. It's easy enough to check and eliminate I suppose, so that's what I'll look at first I guess.

CJH wrote:Would a faulty solenoid also explain yesterday's symptom, where the starter didn't fire at all and I just got a click from the direction of the starter? Is it something I can service myself, or am I looking at a replacement?

To be honest if the solenoid is playing up mechanically then I guess all bets are off and yes, you could get the symptoms that you saw - i.e. perhaps the solenoid was partially working (it clicks but doesn't fully engage so the starter doesn't start ..... maybe .... )
As for the service - I'd be guessing so hopefully someone who knows can help out but I'd surmise that servicing the solenoid would be something best left to an expert .... your problem might be that if this is a fault that is not always evident then it'd be hard to diagnose.
How are you sure that the pinion is disengaging when the motor runs on?? What's the effects that you see/hear that make you think that the pinion is retracting but the motor still runs??

MidLifeCrisis wrote: How are you sure that the pinion is disengaging when the motor runs on?? What's the effects that you see/hear that make you think that the pinion is retracting but the motor still runs??

I hear the motor spinning by itself, but the engine is not turning over. This has happened after the engine has kicked over but failed to start, although thinking about it now it's possible that I've heard it running on on a couple of occasions after the engine has fired up.

MidLifeCrisis wrote: As for the service - I'd be guessing so hopefully someone who knows can help out but I'd surmise that servicing the solenoid would be something best left to an expert .... your problem might be that if this is a fault that is not always evident then it'd be hard to diagnose.

Yeah, that's the classic problem with intermittent faults. I think if cleaning up the earth connections and checking the wiring doesn't fix it then I'll probably just take it for a service at the place that repaired my alternator recently. Good quick turnaround and a decent price.

I checked and cleaned the starter connections, as well as the earth strap in the engine bay underneath the coil and the one from the gearbox, and it hasn't helped. In fact, on one occasion after starting the engine today the starter continued to turn (with the pinion gear disengaged) and instead of stopping eventually by itself it just carried on spinning. I had to stop the engine and disconnect the battery to make it stop. When I reconnected the battery it started spinning again.

So I've removed the starter for now in preparation for taking it to be repaired/refurbished.

Has anyone had a starter solenoid to bits? I'm slightly worried about making things worse, but if it's just a matter of cleaning and greasing the solenoid guts I could give that a go.

Go ahead - you have nothing to lose by cleaning it up and greasing. I am not sure if it should be greased but I have done in the past with no ill effects. I had to grease up the one on my boat engine as it used to get rust on it very quickly due to the salt air and wouldn't engage.

Oldiebut goodie wrote:Go ahead - you have nothing to lose by cleaning it up and greasing. I am not sure if it should be greased but I have done in the past with no ill effects. I had to grease up the one on my boat engine as it used to get rust on it very quickly due to the salt air and wouldn't engage.

That was all the encouragement I needed

I took the solenoid off, and it seems to be moving freely, but I'll clean it, grease it, and put it back.

But can you help me understand its operation OBG? I assume it has two functions - 1) to engage/disengage the pinion gear in the flywheel (this seems to be working) and 2) to control the supply of current to the motor itself. I first assumed the exposed braided cable between the solenoid and the motor body was an earth strap, but I can't see any other way for current to reach the motor so now I suppose that must be a live cable and the earth is provided through the motor body - is that right?

So my over-running motor is presumably caused because the solenoid is not cutting the power to the motor when it should. I assume the pinion gear being kicked back is what's supposed to make the solenoid cut the power, so maybe greasing it up will ensure that switch gets tripped. Is that the spring-loaded brass pin underneath the sprung weight maybe? Unfortunately the electrickery in the solenoid is all sealed up and inaccessible, so if my greasing it up doesn't work I will probably need a new solenoid at least, which probably means a new starter I assume.

CJH wrote: 1) to engage/disengage the pinion gear in the flywheel (this seems to be working) and 2) to control the supply of current to the motor itself. I first assumed the exposed braided cable between the solenoid and the motor body was an earth strap, but I can't see any other way for current to reach the motor so now I suppose that must be a live cable and the earth is provided through the motor body - is that right?
Yes it is a heavy duty live, it can get quite hot which is why presumably it isn't insulated, some starters have a copper strip instead.

So my over-running motor is presumably caused because the solenoid is not cutting the power to the motor when it should. I assume the pinion gear being kicked back is what's supposed to make the solenoid cut the power, so maybe greasing it up will ensure that switch gets tripped. Is that the spring-loaded brass pin underneath the sprung weight maybe? Unfortunately the electrickery in the solenoid is all sealed up and inaccessible, so if my greasing it up doesn't work I will probably need a new solenoid at least, which probably means a new starter I assume.

You can get the solenoids on their own but by the time you have deciphered the part number and sourced a supplier you would have been better off replacing the whole caboodle IMHO. I have used spray oil like wd40 to clean rust particles etc from the plunger area and greased up the fork pivot. I have greased up the motor shaft so that the drive gear slides easily on my boat starter as it doesn't get dirt/dust in like road vehicles but I am not sure if it is a good idea on road vehicles.
This may help a little:

Thank you. I believe the ignition key provides low current to the solenoid which acts like a relay to provide high current to the motor. What I can't figure out though is what should open that relay to cut the motor power. Is it simply the ignition key, or does the plunger being kicked back override the key? I'm guessing that it's both - that the low current relay circuit has two switches in series - the ignition key and and an override provided by the plunger. One way or another that relay is staying closed in my case, even with the ignition key turned back to the off position. If this is the case, then logically it's unlikely that both the plunger cut-out AND the ignition barrel could fail at the same time, so if one or both of those switches is open and the motor is still spinning it seems like it might be a sticky relay. Does any of that make sense?

OK, making some progress. The spring-loaded brass pin at the base of the solenoid (the contacts end) is indeed a switch. When it's depressed, corresponding to the pinion being in the forward (engaged) position, the high current circuit is closed. So the low current circuit pulls the plunger down which simultaneously engages the pinion and closes the high current circuit to drive the motor. I don't see how the pinion is thrown back after all - I think there is just a clutch that allows it to spin freely if the engine is running. So I think the solenoid plunger only trips the brass pin switch when the low current circuit is opened. So this raises the possibility that my ignition switch might conceivably be at fault (if it keeps the starter circuit closed even in the off position), but it still seems more likely that it's the brass pin not being tripped, possibly due to the plunger weight not moving freely.

So that gives me a couple of things to go at in the morning - I can make sure the plunger weight is properly lubricated, and I can check the operation of the ignition barrel.

Typed this as you posted!
It could be the ignition switch is keeping the solenoid energized - pity you didn't pull off the trigger wire from the solenoid when it carried on spinning as that would have identified it for sure. You could check for 12v on the spade terminal now when the ignition key is turned and see if it remains when you/your unwilling helper release the key.
It would make sense that it is that causing it as you have now found that the gear is free to move back.

Oldiebut goodie wrote:You could check for 12v on the spade terminal now when the ignition key is turned and see if it remains when you/your unwilling helper release the key.

Yes, that's the way to check it. I got a new multimeter for Christmas, with a set of croc clip leads, so I can do this even without an unwilling helper!