Club 80-90 Forums

Here we go again. 9 month old Bosch 60Ah battery has been struggling over the past two weeks. There is no battery light showing when driving. It struggles to start, but later on the same day it starts without struggling, even when left for several hours.

Went outside today and checked the voltage - 11.69V fitted to the connectors. So I disconnected it from the van and checked voltage again - 12.03V. So a difference. Is this voltage drop normal? I have taken it indoors and attached it to a charger.

The leisure battery is only just over a year old and is charging fine. I have now checked and cleaned the battery earth connection to the van body and the body itself and the connectors to the drive battery. Could this be a worn out voltage regulator that is only partly working? Could a faulty relay attached to the leisure battery cause this problem? Any thoughts guys? Cheers.

Ralf85 wrote:Here we go again. 9 month old Bosch 60Ah battery has been struggling over the past two weeks. There is no battery light showing when driving.

But it comes on when you first turn the ignition on, right? Does it stay on when first started, then go off with an audible click from your left buttock?

It struggles to start, but later on the same day it starts without struggling, even when left for several hours.

Sounds like it's charging and holding charge, at least briefly.

What's the current draw across the battery with "everything off"? Take the earth lead off the battery, put a multimeter on an amp range between the lead and terminal. It might rise up for a minute whilst stereo/alarm/whatever has a think and a reset, but it should settle down quickly to a figure.

AdrianC wrote:

Ralf85 wrote:Here we go again. 9 month old Bosch 60Ah battery has been struggling over the past two weeks. There is no battery light showing when driving.

But it comes on when you first turn the ignition on, right? Does it stay on when first started, then go off with an audible click from your left buttock?

What's the current draw across the battery with "everything off"? Take the earth lead off the battery, put a multimeter on an amp range between the lead and terminal. It might rise up for a minute whilst stereo/alarm/whatever has a think and a reset, but it should settle down quickly to a figure.

Yes, sometimes the battery light stays on and then the relay clicks under my seat and it goes out, but this only happens occasionally. Normally the light goes out straight away. Could the relay be the problem?


I need a new multimeter to carry out the second test as mine is limited to 10Amps.
Cheers

Ralf85 wrote:Yes, sometimes the battery light stays on and then the relay clicks under my seat and it goes out, but this only happens occasionally. Normally the light goes out straight away. Could the relay be the problem?

Unlikely - that's what it should be doing (or, at least, exactly what ours does). The split-charge only clicks once it sees charging voltage.

I need a new multimeter to carry out the second test as mine is limited to 10Amps.

You'll struggle to find a >10A multimeter, but you shouldn't be seeing anywhere NEAR that! 10A would _totally_ flatten a 60Ah battery in six hours, and probably stop the van from starting in about an hour or two. From fully charged. The headlights draw about 10A... Anything over about a fifth to a tenth of an amp is too much.

AdrianC wrote:

Ralf85 wrote:Yes, sometimes the battery light stays on and then the relay clicks under my seat and it goes out, but this only happens occasionally. Normally the light goes out straight away. Could the relay be the problem?

Unlikely - that's what it should be doing (or, at least, exactly what ours does). The split-charge only clicks once it sees charging voltage.

I need a new multimeter to carry out the second test as mine is limited to 10Amps.

You'll struggle to find a >10A multimeter, but you shouldn't be seeing anywhere NEAR that! 10A would _totally_ flatten a 60Ah battery in six hours, and probably stop the van from starting in about an hour or two. From fully charged. The headlights draw about 10A... Anything over about a fifth to a tenth of an amp is too much.

Right, so tomorrow once I have put the battery back in the van I will do amperage flow test. Cheers!

You certainly sound like you have some real issues.
For starters....12.03 is around 20% charged so extremely low by any standards.
11.67 is basically flat.

What I would like to know is does the battery hold a steady 12.7 volts after a good charge. By good charge I mean a basic 4amp charger left on for 20 hours or so (the actual measurement needs to be taken several hours AFTER the charger is disconnected)
Next
What voltage are you getting across the battery terminals with the engine running and throttle held at 1500rpm. (you should be seeing 13.9-14.2 volts)

Common issues on Westie's:
1) Leisure battery dead short bringing the starter battery down with it....melted split charge relay caused by the first fault.
2) Alternator regulator/brush pack worn out or just plain faulty.
3) Battery boiled dry
4) Blue wire on the alternator adrift or partial connection.
5) Broken/loose/corroded earths/positive feed connections...the main ones.
6) Mystery discharge...something is taking power ie stereo maybe the Ebberspacher if there is a split charge relay fault. NOTE* sometimes advisable to disconnect the leisure battery to elliminate it from the equation.

DO THE BASIC CHARGE TESTS FIRST with a fully charged battery.

Martin

California Dreamin wrote:You certainly sound like you have some real issues.
For starters....12.03 is around 20% charged so extremely low by any standards.
11.67 is basically flat.

What I would like to know is does the battery hold a steady 12.7 volts after a good charge. By good charge I mean a basic 4amp charger left on for 20 hours or so (the actual measurement needs to be taken several hours AFTER the charger is disconnected)
Next
What voltage are you getting across the battery terminals with the engine running and throttle held at 1500rpm. (you should be seeing 13.9-14.2 volts)

Common issues on Westie's:
1) Leisure battery dead short bringing the starter battery down with it....melted split charge relay caused by the first fault.
2) Alternator regulator/brush pack worn out or just plain faulty.
3) Battery boiled dry
4) Blue wire on the alternator adrift or partial connection.
5) Broken/loose/corroded earths/positive feed connections...the main ones.
6) Mystery discharge...something is taking power ie stereo maybe the Ebberspacher if there is a split charge relay fault. NOTE* sometimes advisable to disconnect the leisure battery to elliminate it from the equation.

DO THE BASIC CHARGE TESTS FIRST with a fully charged battery.

Martin

Cheers Martin. That's a useful check list. I will do the voltage test as you advise. Provided the charge holds, I will put it back in the van. I will then check to see what amp drain there might be, as Adrian C suggests. I will then disconnect the leisure battery and do the test again. After that I will run the engine and do the voltage test. Am I doing this is the right order?

Ralf85 wrote:Common issues on Westie's:
1) Leisure battery dead short bringing the starter battery down with it....melted split charge relay caused by the first fault.
2) Alternator regulator/brush pack worn out or just plain faulty.
3) Battery boiled dry
4) Blue wire on the alternator adrift or partial connection.
5) Broken/loose/corroded earths/positive feed connections...the main ones.
6) Mystery discharge...something is taking power ie stereo maybe the Ebberspacher if there is a split charge relay fault. NOTE* sometimes advisable to disconnect the leisure battery to elliminate it from the equation.

DO THE BASIC CHARGE TESTS FIRST with a fully charged battery.

Martin

Cheers Martin. That's a useful check list. I will do the voltage test as you advise. Provided the charge holds, I will put it back in the van. I will then check to see what amp drain there might be, as Adrian C suggests. I will then disconnect the leisure battery and do the test again. After that I will run the engine and do the voltage test. Am I doing this is the right order?
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It sounds as if you're charging OK - ruling out 2 and 4 - and it starts OK even after a few hours sat - ruling out 3 and 5. Check that you're getting 14v-ish with the engine running, though - multimeter on volts, and just check across the battery terminals with the engine running. Try it on both. When you disconnect the leisure, make sure the +ve can't touch metal with the engine running and the split charge kicked in - else you'll get very sparky and damage things. Mebbe just disconnect the -ve lead, or wrap the +ve in electrical tape.

Got that Adrian. Cheers!

Just one other point. I've looked to see if there are any split charge relays out there, just in case mine is damaged. I've checked around, but the only one I found is with JK. Would that be the one to get? There are cheap ones on fleabay etc but I want mine to last.

Ralf85 wrote:Just one other point. I've looked to see if there are any split charge relays out there, just in case mine is damaged. I've checked around, but the only one I found is with JK. Would that be the one to get? There are cheap ones on fleabay etc but I want mine to last.

When you've got the leisure disconnected, see if you've got +12v between the two _leads_ with the engine off. If you aren't, but you are seeing +14v across the leisure with the engine running, then your split-charge is just fine.

This is really useful stuff guys. Thank you so much. I will post up when I have done the checks tomorrow!

AdrianC wrote:

Ralf85 wrote:Just one other point. I've looked to see if there are any split charge relays out there, just in case mine is damaged. I've checked around, but the only one I found is with JK. Would that be the one to get? There are cheap ones on fleabay etc but I want mine to last.

When you've got the leisure disconnected, see if you've got +12v between the two _leads_ with the engine off. If you aren't, but you are seeing +14v across the leisure with the engine running, then your split-charge is just fine.

Unless of course the relay has melted together, as they sometimes do......hence the reason for me saying dead leisure bringing down the starter battery.

The original Westy relay is a rather weak 5 terminal Double Make & Break B type pin configuration. 20/30amp from memory.
Lucas/Durite make a much heavier version with a separate fridge output.....as in the link.

http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/824" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Martin

California Dreamin wrote:

AdrianC wrote:When you've got the leisure disconnected, see if you've got +12v between the two _leads_ with the engine off. If you aren't, but you are seeing +14v across the leisure with the engine running, then your split-charge is just fine.

Unless of course the relay has melted together, as they sometimes do......hence the reason for me saying dead leisure bringing down the starter battery.

If it's melted together, you'd be getting +12v across the leads with the engine off and the leisure disconnected - coming from the starter battery.
If you're not, but are getting +14v at the leisure with the engine running, it's gotta be switching. Unless I'm forgetting something?

All a bit of guess work without knowing what has failed...the owner really needs to isolate the leisure then do the standing and running charge tests first before moving on, based on those findings. We don't even know whether the battery checks out yet without it first having a good charge and rest.
So perhaps we may have speculated enough on the limited information available to us, lets wait for more info, as often there is a heated discussion, throwing out all sorts of suggestions based on a few morsals, only to find out some bomshell half way through the thread.

Martin