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Re: Leaking water gasket & top end rebuild how to
Posted: 29 Jun 2011, 05:44
by Aidan
thanks for this Paul
Re: Leaking water gasket & top end rebuild how to
Posted: 29 Jun 2011, 08:41
by croc
Paul, you have created a thing of great beauty!! Well done.
Pity they tend to get covered with road crud when in use.
Super! May you have many pleasant miles.
Re: Leaking water gasket & top end rebuild how to
Posted: 29 Jun 2011, 15:27
by ghost123uk
Brilliant Paul
I am sure that will get in the wiki and be available online for posterity
I know that first turn of the key, then the next couple of dozen miles
CAN be nerve-wracking, though I doubt in your case there will be much to worry about
Now, how much do you reckon a job like that would cost if you had to pay someone to do it ? ( Luckily, touches wood, mine is OK ! )
Re: Leaking water gasket & top end rebuild how to
Posted: 05 Jul 2011, 13:02
by silverbullet
As I'm still plodding on with my DG rebuild Paul (apologies for getting your name wrong before....) I'll ask: did you replace the rod bolts as per all warnings and if so, where the hell did you find any???
I may have to resort to ARP if available but it's all going a bit Stella Artois £££
Re: Leaking water gasket & top end rebuild how to
Posted: 05 Jul 2011, 20:50
by mm289
Hi,
I didn't replace the head studs - mine were in pretty good condition on this engine and I didn't see the need, if they were heavily corroded like in the previous engine I stripped then I would have changed them.
I did however clean up all the threads etc before re-assembly.
Have used ARP stuff on my american engines and they have been good, also seen that status vw stock some EMPI and BugPack stuff, not checked out if it is the right lengths etc as they mostly do Aircooled stuff.....
http://www.status-vw.co.uk/shop/index.h ... lang=en-gb
Getting to the stage where I'm thinking about gettin some suppliers lined up for the WBX engine stuff and seeing what prices I can get as it is a pain in the backside having to search around all the time
! Seems bizarre that most of the specialist stuff seems to come from the states (Scat, CB etc) - given i only live 4 hours from germany (was in Munich earlier today) there must be some good german suppliers of standard and performance WBX stuff!
Cheers,
MM (paul)
Re: Leaking water gasket & top end rebuild how to
Posted: 05 Jul 2011, 21:07
by mm289
ghost123uk wrote:Brilliant Paul
Now, how much do you reckon a job like that would cost if you had to pay someone to do it ? ( Luckily, touches wood, mine is OK ! )
The top end rebuild isn't that difficult but it is time consuming - I would have the following thoughts...
1. Given you have to drop the engine out to do it properly you have to factor in the time and equipment to do this
2. The strip and rebuild is fiddly more than anything and that has a costs as it slows stuff down
3. As Baxter has commented elsewhere there is a real risk of mega probs if for example a stud snaps, and this makes estimating the cost/time really difficult.
4. I went overboard in terms of repainting/prepping the engine and all components etc.
All of the above mean this one took over 40 hours, which is fine if you do it for yourself, if you charged for it you are into over a grand for a top end rebuild with limited new parts and a re-paint
Reality is I reckon a fully rebuilt engine (bottom end as well) to this sort of standard, replacing the parts that need replacing with NEW parts and doing all the cosmetic stuff walks you into a £3k plus engine - which is kinda where
the top US builders are like Rocky jennings and 10c from what i read.
It is also why I struggle to see how a £1k "remanufactured" engine can be viable - BUT THAT IS JUST MY OPINION - I know some have had very good experiences with recon's and I am not trying to judge, just looking at the economics.
Not sure if that helps, other than to say it is not a cheap game
MM
Re: Leaking water gasket & top end rebuild how to
Posted: 06 Jul 2011, 08:22
by silverbullet
Despite my feeble efforts trawling t'interweb and not having any kind of Aircooled/type 1 background at all myself, a near-simultaneous result from Simon TMT and Simon B turned up this info on rod bolts for WBX; I reckon it's the way I'm going as I happen to have a mate in my village who is a very experienced Chevy V8 man
:
http://www.shoptalkforums.com/viewtopic ... 7&t=121403" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (this was in September 2008)
BBC= Big BlockChevy 396 Cu. In. if you're not familiar with all that...
16 BBC ARP 2000 waveloks usually cost far less than 8 std grade T1 or T4 ARPs... ~Always available on EBay.
IF you have the holes reamed a couple thou, BBC (396) 3/8" bolts also work great, and are available in the ARP2000 material and wavelok design, come with 12pt nuts, HIGHLY recommended.
Find out your machinists choice of beverage...
You want a .005" press fit IIRC. Have them resized afterwards of course. (always)
Typically the cost of dropping in the lesser std bolts or paying a bit extra for the machining with FAR BETTER, but oddly much less expensive bolts is a wash price wise.
You also get a spare set for "free" that can undoubtedly be sold to another lister.
It's all due to the laws of supply and demand, a LOT more folks buy new ARP bolts for their BBC than their ACVW:
VW guys usually just buy new rods, or go with std replacement grade bolts (or just skip replacing them...)
ANOTHER option pioneered by tencentlife and myself is having aftermarket rods resized on the small end...
His rod choice I believe was better, esp considering the fact that the AA/Cofap and QSC WBX pistons all have the deck height wrong, he went with SCAT 5.5" Ibeam rods.
SCAT will resize/rebush them for $20 ea at the factory IIRC.
(I initially went with the 5.4" CB IBeams, and am about to use them for another ...more interesting app in a T4, due to this very issue)
Both have plenty of meat for a larger pin.
So, for ~2 bills you end up with a very nice NEW set of 8740 WBX rods with ARP2000 bolts, and can trim the piston crown as required to get the deck perfect at .030"-.040, rather than the bloody .070ish it usually ends up at.
For unmodified rods (?) :
u can also use stock type 1/3 bolts.
I use the type 1 bolts in my turbo WBX with no problems
Worth adding to the wiki?
Re: Leaking water gasket & top end rebuild how to
Posted: 07 Jul 2011, 15:10
by mm289
yep, had heard about the Chevy bolts but that is a nice explanation of how they work.
Did you also look at 1.9 bolts from VW?
And finally, I will have to read posts more carefully, then I won't answer questions about rod bolts by talking about cylinder head studs
MM
Re: Leaking water gasket & top end rebuild how to
Posted: 08 Jul 2011, 09:21
by billy739
back in the old days a top end rebuild on an old T1 beetle engine usually lead to bottom end failure from all that new load.
i hope these engines are more up for it.
personally i would have looked at big ends/ rod bolts
but looking at your engine you lucily had a good one to start with.
hope you get many more miles from it
Re: Leaking water gasket & top end rebuild how to
Posted: 08 Jul 2011, 13:29
by toomanytoys
Rod bolts and a big eng resize.. DEFFO on 2.1 rods.. 1.9's dont seem to suffer, well at least the early ones with non stretch bolts.. the 1.9 rod bolts are NLA from VW..
Chevy 3/8ths IS the way to go...
Just need someone with an engineering shop I can trust to ream and resize the big ends...
Re: Leaking water gasket & top end rebuild how to
Posted: 11 Jul 2011, 20:28
by mm289
There's nothing sweeter than.........
A total quiet WBX
not a clattering lifter in sight, quiet as a church mouse.
Apart from the exhaust blowing where the knuckle joins the intermediary pipe,
Oh and the transmission (auto) started to whine so dropped the sump for a fluid and filter change - and one of the sump bolts snapped off in the case
Repeat after me, I will get this back on the road in time for our summer hols....I will get this back on the road in time for our summer hols....I will get this back on the road in time for our summer hols
Re: Leaking water gasket & top end rebuild how to
Posted: 12 Jul 2011, 08:31
by silverbullet
Type 1 bolts not available either then? They must be, surely. Torque to 35 lb.ft job done.
But if you intend to work it hard...a set of Chevy ones (16 bolts and nuts) is about £80 in the UK - unless I can get a better price - but that will do 2 wbx.
We regularly get rod eyes re-sized by our engine shop (special machine, so really quick = not expensive) but we would ream them out first in any case.
Re: Leaking water gasket & top end rebuild how to
Posted: 27 Jul 2011, 09:59
by silverbullet
Looks like non-stretch rod bolts are available again...
http://www.vwheritage.com/vw_act_shop.p ... try_GB.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I've sent this to Baxter's to see if he can improve on the price, but I don't hold much hope as Classic are now playing hard ball over discounts to anyone who isn't Heritage
Re: Leaking water gasket & top end rebuild how to
Posted: 27 Jul 2011, 14:41
by mm289
yep, having this conversation with Aidan at the mo.
Meeting the Heritage boys tonight at Brands Hatch so seeing what they can do for us.
MM