Club 80-90 Forums

IMO decoupling the four wheel drive is somewhat missing the point, especially as a decoupler costs more than a re-worked VC.

(Bern Jaeger: decoupler 1280 Euro, VC 767 Euro http://www.vw-t3-bus.de/syncro-spezialteile/index.html )

I like the fact, that a working VC actually gives you added safety in normal driving conditions (i.e. on the road) while performing close to the "real thing" (i.e selectable 4WD)) offroad. In my mind it is the perfect compromise, a decoupled system is only second best.

"To open an old can off worms"
In many cases a good VC will fail compared to a decoupler.
I have done lots of testing on new and refurbed VC's and found them to slip(not transfere drive under a lot of conditions(probably more servere than most people will do)Even stiff VC's slip.But a decoupler and billet shaft cant be beaten for traction.
If u want ure van however to be more tarmack bias then a VC can be benaficial.Not that i have ever needed one (VC)in all my years of tarmack
driving.I supose it depends on how u handle or drive ure van.

PS: Henning at Syncro services in Germany dose decouplers a lot cheaper than 1250 euro and so dose Syncro hospital in SA.

Drifting slightly OT here ...

There is no doubting, that the T3 Syncro is a very capable vehicle off road ...but it's not an offroader and was never designed to be one. I'd say if you had to give it a name it would probably best be described as a "rough roader", and if you use it as such, the VC is perfect.

If, on the other hand, you want to push it to its limits and beyond off road regularly, the VC has shortcomings and you're better off taking it out altogether, connect front and rear permanently and fit a decoupler.
But then design limitations come into play. Due to near zero articulation you need to hammer it through difficult bits with difflocks permanently engaged, putting huge strain on the whole drivetrain and all its components. Add to that the lack of proper low range gearing and you're really straining the engine as well.
Personally, I have no intention of doing that ...but each to their own.

As for 4WD on normal roads:
In my little corner of rural Ireland, "normal" roads are often partially flooded, covered in greasy muck or slippery "loose chippings". My steep gravel driveway borders on greenlaning and some of my favourite fishing spots are down some soggy borreen. In the Syncro I have found the ideal vehicle for these conditions and it will shrug off all these challenges using 4WD if and when needed without me having to worry about it.

Having come from a selectable 4WD vehicle, I have to say that for my kind of usage I prefer the Syncro: 4WD is always there without having to engage it, it doesn't bind up when you forget to disengage and its perfectly usable in mixed conditions, those conditions that were too slippery for the Suzuki in 2WD and too tractable for 4WD.

I'm very happy with my functioning VC and hope that it will last a long time.

I agree that to decouple the syncro is in many ways is not right, but agree with russell that in just about all situations 4x4 is not necessary. even a two wheel drive with difflock on the rear would be fine for most situations and avoid those embarrassing stuck on wet grass campsite moments. I had not considered the billet shaft option, but it is interesting. Bernd Jaegar is the most expensive place to buy one. busman's are much cheaper, and I have heard that you can get the component parts and machine your own gearbox nose for around £350.

I think that the syncro is much safer when driven hard, as it virtually eliminates the fishtailing tendency that the two wheel drive ones have when pushed. I have always thought the braking to be better on syncros, i think the four wheel drive offers some anti lock characteristics which help prevent wheel lock up. but these are for extreme situations.

The first syncro I drove was only 2 years old and had 22,000 miles on the clock. It still had a noticeable tightening on sharp turns, and in the further 100,000 miles that vehicle did in the family it went through 2 complete sets of cv joints, I am sure that the VC is to blame for this. I once broke a front CV joint on the Isle of Skye, that was expensive. The idea of the decoupler for me would be soley to eliminate wear and tear. My 16" VC also works very well, but a 2wd at slow speed tight turns is much better. I will have alot of fun seeing how far I can get up my favorite lanes with 2wd and rear difflock. It will make the vehicle more fun, and pulling a knob on the dash to engage 4wd adds to the driver envolvement and fun.

When I was a new driver my dad had a syncro as a family car and work vehicle and it would 4 wheel drift very nicely round and round greasy roundabouts, this was especially popular with a load of mates in the back. whereas a heavy foot in the two wheel drive would have you in the hedge, but I wouldnt do that now!!

I can see now why I am not a scientist when tryng to understand the internal workings of a VC. The diagram of the VC on hacksawbobs link to an australian subaru site looks very similar to the diagram on the VW syncro brochures.

syncrosimon be sure to keep a photo diary of your project, & keep us updated.

even a two wheel drive with difflock on the rear would be fine for most situations and avoid those embarrassing stuck on wet grass campsite moments.

With the 48/52 axle weight balance of a syncro, this is maybe not so true. At Coney farm, on the campsite field, just a mild slope, but wet and greasy, slightly boggy, with a blown VC; new Machos and a difflocked rear, was 'really' difficult to get to the top of the field, and with road tyres, barely half-way..

Looks like I'm the only decoupler fan then!!! Luckily I have convinced the wife that its a great idea!!!

I have never not owned a vw T3 of some sort, and had syncros since 1987, I am fitting a decoupler. I am getting close now to the perfect van for me. I like the DJ, hate diesels with a passion, and the bus will be better for the decoupler. But that is the sum of 20 years experience of driving them, and 20 years of wanting what I have now got.

Syncro's for me is about being able to park somewhere far from the madding crowd, for a quiet cup of tea.

[quote="peasant"]...


But then design limitations come into play. Due to near zero articulation you need to hammer it through difficult bits with difflocks permanently engaged, putting huge strain on the whole drivetrain and all its components. Add to that the lack of proper low range gearing and you're really straining the engine as well.
Personally, I have no intention of doing that ...but each to their own.

Sorry to say(no offence intended) Peasant but you obviously havent spent much time in a syncro offroad.
U dont have to hammer it through difficult terrain.Quite often i idle through it.Articulation,well VW fitted difflocks to help with that and used correctly dont strain the drivetrain exessivley. Offroading in any vehicle puts strain on it.
There are other limitations(Most odviouse is the front overhang)wich limit the syncro but then all vehicles have limitations of some sort.
A lot of these limitations can be addresed(depending whot u are after,road or offroad)

By "hammering" I don't necessarily mean that you do it at full revs but at full strain to the material.

What's better? ...a vehicle that divides the strain through four wheels that are in touch with the ground at all times or a vehicle that has to put the same forces through two wheels only, because the other two are spinning slowly and uselessly in the air?

VW had to fit difflocks to the Syncro, because without it it wouldn't go very far (and the army and utility companies wouldn't have bought any ), but just because they're there doesn't make the Syncro a rock climber in the Rubicon Trail sense.

Some people still attempt these kind of trails, and the Syncro does cope rather well (considering its limitations ) personally though I find gearboxes, VC's, driveshafts and suspension bits a tad too expensive to be "playing" with them in this way.

If I had wanted a vehicle for offroading, I probably would have modded my Suzuki and not bought a Syncro. The Syncro does do well offroad, but I wouldn't call it its "natural habitat".

And to take the very long way round to the original topic, the workings of the VC ...in a sense, I think, the fact that the VC doesn't fully lock and does slip at difficult obstacles, may have been VW's safeguard against all to rigorous offroad frollicking

ummm interesting views expressed. i think what's plain is that your opinion on this matter is obviously (and rightly so) dictated by what you use your vehicle for.

I have run both setups in my vans, my old syncro had a VC and my current syncro runs a decoupler with a billet shaft. I have to say that I prefer the on road charachteristics of my current setup better (when it's running in 2WD) it drives better through corners, doesn't feel so strained and just feels altogether more comfortable. As for off-roading, I find that I don't really need to select 4WD very often at all, indeed much of the coast to coast run was done in 2WD with a smattering of rear diff - I don't think I used the front at all. When the situation arises and I do need to select power to all four wheels and pop it into G I only need to use minimal revs to climb or cross a particular tricky piece of ground - also I can't remember getting stuck once since fitting this system (and believe me it's not through a lack of trying).

then again, I tend to do one or the other - tarmac or off-roading - not much of the inbetween.

andrew

amulet wrote: I have to say that I prefer the on road charachteristics of my current setup better (when it's running in 2WD) it drives better through corners, doesn't feel so strained and just feels altogether more comfortable.

....



then again, I tend to do one or the other - tarmac or off-roading - not much of the inbetween.

andrew

Strange that you should say that ...I've driven 2WD T3's for 17 years and other than the wet campsite scenario I could never really fault their driving characteristics ...but ... since I drive the Syncro I just find it so much more assured on the road. Yes, it can be a bit stiff sometimes but especially on mixed surfaces I find more surefooted and less twitchy.


You are of course right ...horses for courses and the right setup for the right job.

I do indeed drive a lot of "inbetween" stuff ...roads that aren't perfect, lanes that aren't too difficult...and for that I find the Syncro with a working VC close to perfect.

I think that the sure footedness of the syncro is to do with the extra weight on the front axle. When i had bay windows back along I found that the heavier the front wheels the better the handling, and less effects from side winds. the syncro is better in side winds with or without the prop shaft in, so perhaps it is this weight up front that makes the difference in handling. removing the prop just makes it easier to drive around and about and doesnt effect the handling in anything other than a positive fashion. i think that my 16" army aggressive VC and a decoupler will be the perfect match. 2wd for motorways and towns, 4wd for the countryside and off roading, parking on that bit of grass near the beach etc. That always makes me smile, the more extreme the parking spot the better!!

Seems everyone differs on this one either completely or in some detail or other

Makes sense that the syncro with more weight at the front is a bit more stable in cross-winds, or should be.

I drove my yellow van a lot with the prop off, and then back-on once I got a new box for it and have done same with the pickup a bit too. I'm a great believer that a quick blatt around the block tells you very little of subtlety, engine or chassis-wise. But after much driving in one state, a complete switch over does start to bring out the differences as the days go by, more and more.

I found the van quite dreadful in 2WD on roundabouts when giving it a bootful, and quite amazed how sure-footed it was in AWD when pushing really hard on particularly challenging sections of B roads as well as more twisty, sweeping A roads - quite a revelation in fact, after months of 2WD prop-off driving.

On the coast to coast event in the pick-up, as we approached Adensfield through an absolute maze of dips, dives, twists, turns and zooming climbs I thought I'd try to get that green monster out of my mirror (AndyS), and maybe he thought he'd do the same with the yellow one (Sharon and Pete)... we were not hanging about by any means through those few miles of switchbacks, and I doubt a decoupled Syncro would have been anywhere in sight for quite a while after we'd parked up at the Adensfield Arms - even with Lewis Hamilton at the wheel

Not that we were racing mind you .... just enjoying the AWD sure-footedness that a good VC'd Syncro is capable of under braking as well as cornering* (and me revelling in a TD finally pulling strongly and reliably without fuss - a very satisfying combination of torque and grip).

* Seem to remember Jenny only screamed once (well loudly only once), but forgot to ask Sharon how many times Pete did....

OOps! Forgot to say, that i don't doubt a decoupled and solid shafted Syncro is better off-road... but apart from motorways and the like, wouldn't really want a 2WD Syncro

Also, although a bit heavy at times, mainly when cold, don't have any trouble with full-lock without power-steeering. Nor really off-road with front'locker and full-lock - surely it's all a matter of holding the steering wheel properly like - the 10 to 2 thing that doesn't seem to be taught anymore, except maybe by CAMDA or IAM

I think if driven hard on the road, you will notice a massive difference between the 2wd and 4wd. When I had the old Caravelle with the 2.3 Audi lump, or even the 2.1dj, removing the prop and would turn it into a completely different drive, especially in the wet. You could kick the tail out around the slighest bend. With the prop in, and a correctly functioning VC not much hope in the van, more of a sideways event. The road handling with the stiffer Seikel's was damn good for a van!

I have also heard that the VC can improve the breaking in wheel lockup situations, almost acting like ABS.

Eitherway its horses for courses, I'm happy with a VC, as the times I take it to the limit and it slips are few and far between (i.e. deep snow or mega soft sand).