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Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 11:11
by Oldiebut goodie
"Your solderd stranded wire may crack in 20 years of vibration and movement."
Shrink tube is the key - it gives support and puts the flexing point back along the cable to the unsoldered portion. Crimps can have the same problem if there isn't sufficient support between the insulation and the terminal. The copper just work hardens at the hard point on either method if not carried out correctly. Soldering takes only a few minutes to learn and doesn't need sophisticated tools - many is the time that repairs have been done with a gas lighter! (It was harder with old petrol lighters as they would put soot on the wires!) A lump of copper and a means of heating it is all that is needed as a soldering iron - nothing fancy.
Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 11:42
by itchyfeet
Oldiebut goodie wrote:Soldering takes only a few minutes to learn
Sorry don't agree.
We tried to train people to solder at work and the results were terrible, most people just don't have the knack, don't assume what you find easy others will find easy, you have probably been doing it so long you forgot how long it took to get it right when you first started.
Recommending soldering to every DIY repairer is not the right advice IMO, it gets wheeled out on here every time and I hate to think what soldering bodges lie awaiting future owners of these vehicles all hidden behind heatshrink
Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 11:58
by CovKid
Depends where it is though. I wouldn't solder anything inside the vehicle but I do on heavy cables exposed to the elements as it helps seal the cable ends from corrosion. That said, you do need to know what you're doing to avoid 'wicking' and yet still ensure a good joint. Well worth getting a beefy iron too. Maplins do a 100watt one for £15 - great for soldering on brushes etc.
http://www.maplin.co.uk/p/maplin-100w-m ... iron-n00dp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I solder a fair bit as I'm always making up project boards but not much on a T25 requires it.
Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 12:04
by itchyfeet
My starter trigger wire has the original crimp, it's 27 years old and still works fine, so a external crimp can have a long life, no need to suggest it must be soldered.
Balanced advise should be given, a crimp loaded with Vaseline and crimped with proper pliers to shiny copper will have a long life, yes solder if you are confident and know what you are doing and want to, it may be better.
Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 12:20
by Oldiebut goodie
itchyfeet wrote:Oldiebut goodie wrote:Soldering takes only a few minutes to learn
Sorry don't agree.
Recommending soldering to every DIY repairer is not the right advice IMO, it gets wheeled out on here every time and I hate to think what soldering bodges lie awaiting future owners of these vehicles all hidden behind heatshrink
Recommending these plastic shrouded crimps is bad advice also! So many more bodges caused by these being used, out of sight out of mind, can't see the joint so must be OK. Look further back in the thread at the photo of the junction box for more examples of bodges of the wiring.
Crimping is for hairdressers!
Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 12:25
by itchyfeet
So thats why you still have long hair at your age
Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 12:38
by bigherb
Yep I agree with itchy a lot of the faults I have to rectify are from soldered joints (thatcham immobilisers) and those badly crimped pre insulated terminals.
Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 12:57
by CovKid
The trouble is far too many 'crimped' connections are merely squashed through using a cheap tool. Sick of seeing those frankly - especially on stereos. Then theres choc-blocks and insulating tape - even sellotape. Scary.
Good luck crimping starter internal connections though. Some stuff just has to be soldered.
Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 13:07
by itchyfeet
Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 13:28
by Oldiebut goodie
Anywhichway - how about thinking of his original problem again:
Oldiebut goodie wrote:Going back to the first posts - the second wire is for a fuel pump?
I can't see how that is working other than to give power to a pump whilst cranking only.If this is so, how is the power for the pump maintained afterwards? If there is another power supply to the fuel pump for post starting this will feed the solenoid trigger again - unless that spare trigger terminal wire is feeding a relay? Or am I reading the posts incorrectly?
E D I T - that is going to knock the voltage down some on the trigger leading to problems - especially if it is low to begin with.
Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 13:47
by itchyfeet
Seperate problem surely the fuel pump being (strangely) connected there ( i assume as a test)
just because fuel pump buzzes when cranking doesn't mean the supply is good
it may run at a lower voltage and will likely take less current
A clicking solenoid is no guarantee if will switch the main starter current
Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 13:51
by marlinowner
A feed to the fuel pump from the starter solenoid connector will have (virtually) no effect on the voltage seen by the starter solenoid unless there is a resistance somewhere between there and the battery. As said, it must feed the fuel pump via a relay otherwise the start solenoid would be energised all the time the engine is running.
Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 13:56
by itchyfeet
marlinowner wrote:A feed to the fuel pump from the starter solenoid connector will have (virtually) no effect on the voltage seen by the starter solenoid unless there is a resistance somewhere between there and the battery. As said, it must feed the fuel pump via a relay otherwise the start solenoid would be energised all the time the engine is running.
Agreed but pump may run (or be triggered off by a relay) when the voltage is below that required for the solenoid to operate correctly.
Saying the pump stops ( or you just can't hear it) so crimp/trigger wire must be ok is not good logic.
ScienceBoy wrote:Ian. I believe that's ok as I've piggybacked the initial freed to my electric fuel pump off that, and when the starter isn't turning I can still hear the pump. I can also hear the solenoid. The terminal looks ok.
Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 18 Aug 2015, 22:59
by ScienceBoy
Blimey, how long have I been away? You boys have been busy!!
Where to start?
The spades are only on the trigger. There are no other spades. The main feed is all ring tightly bolted on. The red and black is the ignition feed the smaller one with blue is the feed to the fuel pump.
When we're talking about copper oxide, which photo/connection are we talking about; the trigger, the copper braid (why is that left bare), or the post in the JB?
The second wire is for the fuel pump. I followed someone's very detailed instructions in here. Initially the pump runs while cranking. There's a relay that then switches to the alternator once the engine is going.
To clarify the last quote, the pump runs when trying to turn the engine even when the starter doesn't work. I can also hear the solenoid. But I take the comments that that can all work but there may be insufficient voltage to switch the starter etc. I'll have another look at that tomorrow.
Re: Starter motor playing up on 1.9 DG
Posted: 19 Aug 2015, 05:12
by itchyfeet
Copper oxide problem is common on trigger wire (or any external wire your headlights will be the same see pic)
water gets up between plastic sleeve and conductors and oxide forms on evey one of the 30 or so strands of the flexible wire, if it's very bad it goes to green copper oxide.
There is a limit to how far the water will go so you can cut back the cable an inch at a time to find fresh copper, then join on a fresh piece of wire.
The origional crimp to conductor contact area will also suffer corrosion so people replace the drimp.
cutting off the crimp and putting a new one on means you are crimping onto oxide, it needs removing or cutting out.
