Club 80-90 Forums

I hear what you are trying to say, yes a seven meter saving is slightly safer/better for the one percent of my driving, but you can't look at the world or argue for something in only those simple black & white terms.
Otherwise you'd end up with....... 4 wheel drive only or new ABS braking only or lowering speed limits or a zero alcohol limit. All would be safer, but you have to be able to look at the bigger picture, to take a view and see what is viable.

Hi
I'm running Snowies all year, its not a problem as they are well over rated for speed
I think I would only change them for summer ones if we were going somewhere really
hot in the summer.
I've done 20K on these and think they'll be good for another 10-12K and are excellent in the snow.
They are not fitted to the fastest vehicle in the world, but i did give them a 'Good Testing' last season,
ploughing through drifts. On hills it was like they were on tarmac, with only the fiercest of clutch dropping causing
any degree of braking away.
Drifting was predictable and the only cause for mild concern was the fraction of a second it takes,
before the VC takes up drive in a corner.
My boys and their friends were open jawed at what it would plough through.
Bring it on!

http://www.camskill.co.uk/m64b2009s233p ... 104S_XL_TL_" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Sounds like fun, maybe I should get some after all.
Only problem would be how do I get round the 2WD, summer tyre wearing numpty ( ) who's blocked the road!!

I'm struggling to understand the concept of a braking distance on ice without chains or spikes...

Mostly when braking on ice you skid (or not if you've got ABS) until you find a bit of tarmac or something to grip on. In snow it helps not to have ABS as you can build up a nice wedge in front of the wheels

On balance I dont think the midland motorways get enough bad enough weather for me to spend £500 plus on a set of tyres, let alone the spare set of wheels to keep them on (that's for my daily driver which is a Saab 9-5 Aero). If i lived in a rural or more northerly area then, yes, I'd think about it.

We are not mainland Europe - Gulf Stream rules OK !

Thanks for that video. I've been thinking of Winter Tyres for a while but never went ahead and bought any. I seriously will look for a second set of wheels now.

can't see the video for some reason but don't doubt that braking distance is better on winter tyres however i would disagree that BFG AT's are in the same catergory as summer tyres even looking at tread depth and the presence of sipes on them. AT's by their nature are All Terrain and that does include snow and ice, from previous experience of last year they literally stuck to the road/snow/ice despite my best efforts to slide it, the only time the van slipped was on wet ice just before the thaw. Whilst I'm sure that the syncro is an excellent vehicle in the snow and ice it is only as good as its tyres but considering the amount that a set of winter tyres cost I don;t think it is justifyable to change from the AT's, however I do have a set of winter tyres on pentas which I might try out if the weather decides to take a turn maybe even do a test. Oh and regards to using mud and snow off road I think the following video attests to how good they are in the mud

http://s482.photobucket.com/albums/rr18 ... G_2105.mp4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://s482.photobucket.com/albums/rr18 ... G_2104.mp4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jebiga41 wrote: i would disagree that BFG AT's are in the same catergory as summer tyres even looking at tread depth and the presence of sipes on them. Oh and regards to using mud and snow off road I think the following video attests to how good they are in the mud

These two pics were posted elsewhere and clearly show what sipes are and quite clearly show that there are no sipes on a BFG A/T tyre. A winter tyre is made from a particular rubber compound with a high silica content designed for 7 degrees and below, has deep wide treads and sipes. This design combination is not present in the BFG A/T tyre.





I knew those vids would appear sometime but remains to be said that your van also struggled in the same spot and you only got through cuz you had your diff lock engaged! Post the vid of my van getting out of the river where yours got stuck!

Surely those lines on the bf's are sipes ? will investigate tomorrow. Err no my van didn't struggle or get stuck coming out of the river ? Did have MUDs on tho what this one where your recovery rope broke http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr18 ... G_2108.mp4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just teasing Andrew after some careful rock placement he got out http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr18 ... G_2109.mp4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is the markings on my M&S Hankook Dynapro's

and the tread with some sipes.


This is the markings on my excellent Nokian Hakkepelita as used by the Finnish Army on the syncro's.

and the tread with more sipes.


I think these tyres offer the best of bost worlds only losing out on greasy mud and grass etc. No legal lanes around here have that sort of surface anyway.

Think you'll have eat your words Andrew look what I just found on the sides of my BFG AT's
the all important snowflake in the mountain
M+S marking
"Innovative Sipe design " not as jagged as other winter tyres but I would imagine does much the same job

"Meets RMA definition for passenger and light truck for use in severe snow conditions."

See manufacturers description here http://www.offroaders.com/tech/AT-MT-Ti ... -TA-KO.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Regards the rating for M+S found this
"If a tire has MS, M+S, M/S or M&S on it, then it meets the Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA) guidelines for a mud and snow tire. For a tire to receive the Mud and Snow designation, it must meet these geometric requirements (taken from the bulletin "RMA Snow Tire Definitions for Passenger and Light Truck (LT) Tires"):

1. New tire treads shall have multiple pockets or slots in at least one tread edge that meet the following dimensional requirements based on mold dimensions:
a. Extend toward the tread center at least 1/2 inch from the footprint edge, measured perpendicularly to the tread centerline.
b. A minimum cross-sectional width of 1/16 inch.
c. Edges of pockets or slots at angles between 35 and 90 degrees from the direction of travel.

2. The new tire tread contact surface void area will be a minimum of 25 percent based on mold dimensions.

The rough translation of this specification is that the tire must have a row of fairly big grooves that start at the edge of the tread and extend toward the center of the tire. Also, at least 25 percent of the surface area must be grooves.

The idea is to give the tread pattern enough void space so that it can bite through the snow and get traction. However, as you can see from the specification, there is no testing involved.

To address this shortcoming, the Rubber Manufacturers Association and the tire industry have agreed on a standard that does involve testing. The designation is called Severe Snow Use and has a specific icon, which goes next to the M/S designation.

In order to meet this standard, tires must be tested using an American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) testing procedure described in "RMA Definition for Passenger and Light Truck Tires for use in Severe Snow Conditions":

Tires designed for use in severe snow conditions are recognized by manufacturers to attain a traction index equal to or greater than 110 compared to the ASTM E-1136 Standard Reference Test Tire when using the ASTM F-1805 snow traction test with equivalent percentage loads.

These tires, in addition to meeting the geometrical requirements for an M/S designation, are tested on snow using a standardized test procedure.They have to do better than the standard reference tire in order to meet the requirements for Severe Snow Use."

Also interestingly BFG MT's have an M+S marking, just below the n of terrain, but no snowflake in the mountain symbol as they don't have sipes rating them for deep snow but not packed snow or ice http://www.tirerack.com/tires/BigPic.js ... n+T%2FA+KM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jebiga41 wrote:Just teasing Andrew after some careful rock placement he got out http://i482.photobucket.com/albums/rr18 ... G_2109.mp4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Without diff locks ........

jebiga41 wrote:Also interestingly BFG MT's have an M+S marking, just below the n of terrain, but no snowflake in the mountain symbol as they don't have sipes rating them for deep snow but not packed snow or ice http://www.tirerack.com/tires/BigPic.js ... n+T%2FA+KM" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just to confuse the issue completely .....

"In the United States and Canada, a "snowflake on a mountain" symbol means that the tire has exceeded the industry requirement for a reference (non-snow) tire". This is a different definition to the European one


From http://www.snowtyres.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

High speed rated, high performance summer tyres

If your tyres are marked with a V, ZR, W or Y speed rating they are high performance “summer” road tyres and were never designed for driving on snow covered roads. High speed rated summer tyres, by definition are not winter/snow tyres. All high performance AWD summer tyres become like hard plastic when the temperature falls below 7° thereby losing the flexibility needed to build up sufficient grip for braking, for starting traction and for cornering.

Today’s tyre tread designs and compounds maximize long, even wear… not winter traction.


All season tyres

Then when radial ply tyres were also found to deliver more snow traction than the straight rib bias ply tyres, the tyre company marketing departments saw an opportunity, and the term “all-season tyre” was born. Supported by advertising, all-season tyres have presented an unspoken promise that they, throughout their life, can provide traction for all-seasons…through spring’s rain, summer’s heat, autumn’s cooling and winter’s snow. And while this combined offering made all-season tyres popular, the problem is that this geometric definition doesn’t guarantee performance or any degree of safety in winter driving.

Off-road and all-terrain AWD tyres

Off-road and all-terrain AWD tyres are not specifically designed for winter/snow driving either. These types of AWD tyres are designed for off-road driving on gravel, sand and rocks and have a very high noise level. Under cool conditions—not just cold or freezing conditions—the rubber in these tyres gets even harder.

This stiffer tread compound does not conform to irregular road texture as well, and as a result has less actual contact with the road surface. Because off-road tyres have very limited siping on their tread they provide little traction in icy conditions. Only severe service winter tire has the compound to remain soft and pliable at lower temperatures.

M+S marking on tyres is very misleading.

Many AWD tyres are rated M+S, M&S or M/S, i.e., mud and snow. Established by the USA Rubber Manufacturers Association (RMA), the M+S designation refers only to the tread pattern. The M+S standard calls for a tyre with grooves at the outside of the tread that extend into the centre. It also means that 25% of the tyre tread contact surface be open, i.e., a more open tread pattern.

You will find the M+S symbol on most all-season tyres, on off-road and all-terrain tyres and even some high performance summer tyres may have this designation. However, there are no performance standards to meet or traction tests to pass. Any tyre with grooves at angles and with 25% of the tread void can be labelled as M+S.
And on icy snow and on ice, the open tread grooves have zero effect on performance. Control of the vehicle comes strictly from equal parts of the tyre rubber compound that provides adhesion and the effects from the tread sipes.

In 1999, the RMA defined a real “snow” or winter tyre with its severe snow-rating. Car and AWD tyres that pass this performance test and are embossed with the “snowflake on a mountain peak” icon. Severe snow-rated tyres must provide traction at least 10% better than a standard reference test tyre.

The off-road, all-terrain and all-season M+S tyres cannot pass this test. The M+S rating doesn’t mean much.


No words will be eaten!

syncropaddy wrote:In 1999, the RMA defined a real “snow” or winter tyre with its severe snow-rating. Car and AWD tyres that pass this performance test and are embossed with the “snowflake on a mountain peak” icon. Severe snow-rated tyres must provide traction at least 10% better than a standard reference test tyre.


No words will be eaten!

jebiga41 wrote:Think you'll have eat your words Andrew look what I just found on the sides of my BFG AT's
the all important snowflake in the mountain

Errrrmmmm, Do you want sauce with that?