Club 80-90 Forums

Just subscribed to this thread!

Its always good when someone strips one of these old girls apart.........will follow with great interest.

One day it'll happen to all of us.......keep up the good work and appreciate you taking the time to share.
Allways learning.

Many thanks, Mark.

Job #5 - liners and pistons

So, heads are off, liners stayed in the block, but before I removed them I decided to take of the remaining pulleys/pumps and flex plate (its an auto). Before removing the flex plate I made a point of marking how it had been fitted relevant to TDC on no1 so i could re-fit in the same way. not sure if this makes a difference but seemed logical Crank pulley marked at TDC

and corresponding marks on flex plate


Needed a puller to remove the crank pulley (and undid the bolt before removing the flex plate as you need this in place to "lock the crank" whilst undoing the nut!) and you need on of these for the flex plate bolts.


So, pulleys, water pump and flex plate removed I pulled the liners. Pretty straight forward, gently twisted the liners and eased them off the pistons being careful to prevent the pistons from banging around in the case.

Can then start work on removing the pistons - doing it one at a time, the one nearest the hole in the block first. Getting the circlips out is "interesting" but doable with the right circlip pliers.

next need to get the pins out - Haynes say "use a bent piece of wire to pull them out", yeh right! Need an improvised puller, which in my case is a length of threaded M12 rod with a M12 bolt and washer at each end. As it happens an M12 washer is the perfect size to pull though the gudgeon pin and you can use a large socket or similar as a stopper on the far end to pull against. then just wind in the nut on the opposit end to the pin and out it comes - under control, no hammers needed


Repeat the process all round (being VERY CAREFUL when moving the crank/pistons not to foul the skirts on the liner sealing face of the case) and your done. You can then build a nice pile of parts, all neatly numbered like this so you don't get confused


Pistons and liners out next job is to split the case.

Job #6 Split the case

Sound like I have gone back in time and got a splitty called case

TBH this was pretty straight forward. Undid all the nuts and bolts (including oil pump cover if not done already). gently split the case by tapping with a lump of wood. When it was slightly open I then removed the oil pump.




And here we have it, the inside of a WBX in all it "glory"



In the first picture you can see the cam at the top and the crank underneath it. The bearing on journal 2 has seperated and the top half stayed in the journal.

initial impressions are that the case (like the heads) has a lot of residue in it - doesn't look like it has ever been cleaned - let alone 10,000 miles ago when the engine was rebuilt!

On closer inspection some obvious damage is seen. There looks like corrosion near the top of the case on one side



Also some scars on the case below cylinder #3.

I know from the history file that the crank snapped on this motor back in 95 as a result of the flex plate bolts not being tightened properly following a transmission overhaul. I had originally assumed that this was an exchange engine, but this started me down the road of thinking it had been a rebuild.

Doing the obvious, I compared engine numbers to an old V5 I had from before the engine replacement and yep, this is the orignal engine that has been "rebuilt" not replaced.

So, the rebuild has used the original case, some original studs, I wonder what else is "original".

Time to start inspecting components I think.

Job #7 - Inspecting journals and bearings

So time to start looking at what we have got.

Crank removed with con rods attached. Before removing the con rods mark them so you know which cylinder they came from.


Also mark the big end bearings before splitting to make sure they not only go on the right rods, but go on the right way round! Mine still had the original factory markings so that made it easy.

There was a surprising amount of movement on the big ends, not only lateral movement along the crank but you could also "rock" the rod from side to side and see movement at the top - not sure what is normal on these engines -any suggestions?

These are the big end bearings - no scoring but look pretty worn for an engine that was rebuilt 10k ago - were the big ends not replaced I wonder?





Then looked at the bearings on the crank itself. Again, jnls #1, #2 & #3 were all "loose" on the crank which surprised me - again could "rock" them slightly.

Having pulled all the bearings this is what no #1 looked like - not great



And no #2


Cam bearings were in better condition, but odd in that no's #1 & #2 are shiny and #3 looks like it hasn't been touched.
#1

#2

#3


Cam looks in decent condition, although a couple of the cams have a more rounded high point than others.


Need to get the micrometer out next, getting more concerned about the engine the closer I get though - surely it couldn't have been rebuilt with the original crank and big end bearings, IMHO you NEVER rebuild an engine without doing the crank bearings as a minimum

MM

Fascinating thread - thanks very much. I'm currently toying with the idea of a scooby conversion but will need to get someone to do that whereas I have successfully rebuilt several air cooled VW engines and so recognise many of the WBX internals and therefore this route would be a lot cheaper.

Looking forward to seeing how it all develops.

Pete

Mammoth upload session tonight - boy I hope you all are enjoing reading this - it is taking longer than stripping the engine!!!!

Job #8 - measuring up

Off to my bro's to borrow his collection of dial gauges, external & internal micrometers - good on you mate

After playing around with the internal mic on the cylinders I thought I would have a look at a bore micrometer - watched one on e-bay - a Mitutoyo one like my brothers external - it went for £800

Think i'll stick with the standard one thanks.

So too cut a long story short (all measurments are in mm):
> Cam and crank runout all ok.
> Cam journals all ok
> Crank journals:
#1 59.982 - ok
#2 54.991 - ok
#3 54.991 - ok
#4 39.726 - should be 39.98
Looks like #4 jnl has been reground on its own +.25mm- kinda odd

> Big ends
#1 54.996 - ok
#2 54.996 - ok
#3 54.996 - ok
#4 54.996 - ok

If you want to measure & identify cylinders/pistons etc then I recommend you download the WC Engine Assembly PDF from the wiki as this gives the tolerances, ID marks etc.

> Cylinders - measured 15mm from top of cylinder
#1 94.005
#2 94.005
#3 94.005
#4 94.031
Cylinders should be 94.005 to 94.016 on the basis that the pistons are stamped as 93.980 so no problems here either - #4 is a bit worn but within the measurement variance of a .001" micrometer. Cylinders are all clean inside, no scores or scratches and measuring in the opposite axis shows an ovality variance of only 0.025.

Cylinder #3 has a chunk missing from the lower skirt, this is consistent with the case damage and I guess this is where the crank snapped and stabbed a rod/piston into the case



> Pistons look quite "tired" All are marked as Mahle so guess are OE.

Nos. #1, #2 & #3 all have a "+" weight markings on them and also when cleaned up all have nicks in the valve cutouts. It is old damage, below the soot but all the same. Doesn't look bad enough for a valve to have dropped and hit them and is too consistent across all the pistons - odd

#1

#2

#3

#4


I am wondering if the deck height is low enough that an over adjusted rocker would push the valve far enough to just slightly catch the piston crown but thats sounds a long shot - any thoughts?

No #4 has a "-" weight marking and hang on - it has no marks on the crown and looks much newer! Someone has fitted a replacement piston in #4 and managed to pick one from the alternative weight group

Lets measure them up.....measuring 15mm from bottom of skirt
#1 93.9546
#2 93.9546
#3 93.9038
#4 93.9292

Remember the marking on the piston top said 93.980mm so not bad. Then measured the horizontal axis
#1 93.7006
#2 93.6752
#3 93.6752
#4 93.6752

Hmm, these puppys look a bit oval!

Now I'm not Sherlock Homes but, I'm wondering if the crank had excessive end float ( didn't check this before I stripped down) and this slopping around in the horizontal plane has caused the wear on the big end (rods rocking) and the ovality of the pistons (wear in the horizontal plane)

> Piston rings
End gaps are all easily within tolerance as are the side gaps so no problems there

So the summary.........

No obvious failings, but a few questions.

Mismatched pistons, older ones have a fair bit of scaring on the crown, slightly oval.
Crank and rod bearings not good condition and slack.
Some scars on the case and a couple of old, re-used studs.

No obvious signs of the reason for lack of compression on #4 but still need to strip down the heads. Knocking could have been coming from the crank/big ends - will check out the lifters as well when I do the heads.

Not that impressed with the engine "rebuild" 10,000 miles ago so far, I would have to say.

Got RSI from typing now so thats enough for tonight

MM

What do the sides of the pistons look like? can you see machine marks all the way around.? I'd expect light scuffing on the skirts (acceptable)... if lots of original machine markings all the way round, they will prob be fine.. but ought to be matched weight wise.. yes.. valve cut outs look odd.. cant see how even full adjustment of the tappet screw could get the valve open far enough for contact... the cam just doesnt have te lift...

Rods.. NEVER reuse 2.1 rods and rod bolts.. the bolts are 1 time use only (stretch) and the weak link in the engine.. new bolts, and the big end MUST be resized...

Good work...

You mentioned the camshaft earlier, that a couple of the lobes look more rounded lol....even with the smal pic you can see several are badly worn 'flattened' with wear....a new cam is definately needed.
Martin

I hear you,

I now have a "theory" on the piston wear. I reckon end float in the crank has cause the ovality and the slop in the big ends.

Cam looks worn, but don't have the equipment to measure lift vs angle. The lobes are visibly squashed though, you can see they are wider at the top, and two have a much more pronounced "lip" on the top of the lobe whereas the other two are round.

Just pulled the heads down and #4 has a valve seat gone on the exhaust, quite badly worn, looks like the guide must be well gone. Will post the full write up with pics later.

I have to say my opinion of the rebuild by Elite is pretty poor, all they can have done is seals I reckon (it was overheating apparantly) and maybe a piston. Given what I am finding they can't have done much else casue this sort of wear doesn't occur in 10,000 miles!

Looks like I might be ringing Marco for one of his engines soon as this is getting to the "uneconomical repair" stage, LOL

MM

I'm afraid I agree....if this is typical of Elites work and you are correct with your information about when this engine was overhauled.
I wouldn't want to put anyone or any company down based on hearsay tho.
What makes you sure this was overhauled by Elite? and only 10K ago? have you a reciept? or was this just a former owner spinning you a yarn before parting with his van.

Clearly the engine is in poor condition and to suggest any company overhauled it just 10,000 miles ago is pretty damming of their work, this is why you need to be sure of the information you have been told.

Martin

I actually have the original invoice from Elite and all the documents to support mileage etc, so the history is "proven" so to speak. Rebuild was done in 2006 and 10k ago.

Having said that, this thread is about the strip down and (potential) rebuild and hopefully will be informative for people, so I will keep my opinions about Elite seperate , to be fair you never know what happened back then, the PO may have given them a budget, told them just to do the heads etc so some of it is circumstantial.

Cheers,

MM

mm289 wrote:to be fair you never know what happened back then, the PO may have given them a budget, told them just to do the heads etc so some of it is circumstantial.

Whilst that's certainly an option, you'd be surprised if that wasn't reflected on the description of the work on the invoice.

yeh I know,

Just trying to be politically correct and not stir up a wasp's nest

MM

Job #9 - stripping the heads

So, last job on the strip down is to pull apart the heads.



pretty simple job if you have a valve spring compressor. Compress the valve spings, pop the collets out and release the compressor. The valve will then drop out though the guide - or it should do.

I found a couple of mine had distorted heads on the valve stems, somewhere along the line they had taken a real hammering. I had to give them a quick sand down to allow them to pass through the valve guides easily.



And once everything was stripped the reason for low compression on no. 4 became obvious


The exhaust valve has worn the seat down massively on one side - the valve guide must have been totally knackered for a long time.

Rest of the valves look OK but exhausts should probably be replaced as a minimum complete with guides given the state of the one above. Rest of the valve seats look like this:
#1
#2
#3

You can also see some signs of damage to some of the rocker studs, so I wonder if the rocker had come loose at some stage (I did find half a spring washer in one of the rocker boxes) and this had caused the damage to the valve stem heads and possibly the guides.


So, 1 head needs at least a re-cut of the valve seat and depending on how bad it is a rebuild or new head plus replacing the valve guides and exhaust valves.

Job #10 - Costings and summary

So given the above this is what i think I am looking at:

• 1.New pistons - can't seem to find pistons on there own, piston and liner kit is ~£350-£450
  2.New camshaft ~ £200
  3.New followers - £75
  4.Rods/bolts ~£250-£450
  5.Bearings (crank & big end) ~£75 (sold as kits, given my no. #4 is .25 undersize may be a problem)
  6.Exhaust valves & guides ~£90
  7.Gasket set ~£120
  

Total for parts ~£1160 - £1460

Then on top of that is the cost of re-cutting the valve seat on no.#4, getting out the broken head stud and exhaust stud and the fact that i would probably put in a new high volume oil pump and I reckon I am looking at £1500+ and that is with me doing all the labour.

WOW, these are expensive engines to repair - I can get parts for my '66 289 cu in V8 for less than this van. Now these parts are all at retail - trade would be less but even so....... If you disagree with the above prices or have a different view please feel free to let me know

In Conclusion

#1 - This engine is beyond economical repair. Even at trade the extent of the rebuild makes it uneconomical for a standard engine. i may keep the case etc and use it as the basis for building a slightly "warmer" engine for a future project. At the end of the day a stock DJ produces ~115BHP which is difficult to replicate with anything else boxer wise unless you spend serious money or go for a GTI/Scooby transplant - so why not stay with WBX and warm it up a bit

#2 - The upshot of this is that i have just bought another DJ of Jonox on the Brickyard - solid motor with a water leak from the head (rubber trim not sealing) - as long as I don't snap any head bolts this should be a straight forward repair and then i will pop this in the van.

#3 - A good RECON engine will have a lot of new parts in it that are expensive and hence why people like Vega and Marco charge ~£1300+ for their engines - the parts prices alone justify this.

#4 - If you are paying much less than a grand for a REBUILD of your own engine be very careful - ask exactly what is being replaced and is it being replaced with new or used parts. Given the labour involved in a rebuild and the mandatory parts such as gasket sets etc it is highly unlikely that an engine can be properly rebuilt for you for less than a grand in my humble opinion unless it is a very simple repair.
What I think happened on this one is it was overheating/water leak diagnosed as a "blown head gasket". The repairer then did one of two things:
1. simply pulled the heads and replaced a seal or two then re-assembled and charged £800 for a "rebuild"
2. pulled the heads, replaced a seal or two and put in a second hand (non weight matching) piston, reassembled and charged £800 for a "rebuild"
If they did split the case they re-assembled with the original crank and big end bearings, but I think it is more likely they didn't go this far. they also didn't strip/inspect the heads or if they did ignored the wear on no.#4 exhaust.

From my own expeience, if you simply wanted a seal replaced to stop a water/oil/compression leak which would involve pulling the heads and no more then £800 would sound about right by the time you have added up labour, cleaned/painted the case to make it "look" new, taken the risk on studs snapping etc. If that is all that is wrong with your engine then fine - but if you suspect anything else - or it is high mileage - do not do this thinking you are getting a reconditioned engine coz you arent (IMHO ) - if you do go down this route ask for details of parts fitted and work done.

Now I will get on to fitting the replacement engine and hopefully have a working van soon.

Hope you have enjoyed these posts and found them informative - if so please reply even with a to let me know it was worth the hours of typing

Cheers,

MM