Club 80-90 Forums

Because they are prone to failure and would cut power to the ignition randomly as your keys jingle jangle on the keyring

Its just a guess mind but for the money worth ruling it out

but I have ignition, the engine is cranking fine.. just not starting..

colouredFunk wrote:but I have ignition, the engine is cranking fine.. just not starting..

ignition and cranking are two different things and are controlled by two different sets of connectors inside the ignition switch. One set of contacts sends a trigger voltage to the starter motor to make it "crank" the engine. The other set of contacts in the switch send a voltage to the coil, ignition module (and other "bits" on an injected motor ) It is these contacts that Itchy is referring to. It is not uncommon for the contacts that supply the coil etc get worn out, especially if you have more than a couple of keys jangling around on your key ring

There was a guy parked next to us at the last Bustypes show at Oswestry (last month) and he had the same symptoms with his injected motor. He bought a full set of "modules" from a trader guy on here (whilst at the show) and iirc one of them was his problem (I think it was the big box of tricks in the right hand rear void = ECU ?)

Note that we have a new member called "VanAgain" from the states who appears to be an injection guru. Perhaps you (or someone else) could point him at this thread ?

OK thanks for clearing that up. Very helpful I'm putting one on order now.

(I think it was the big box of tricks in the right hand rear void = ECU ?)

Behind the right rear cluster I think it the Idle control uni - http://www.gowesty.com/ec_view_details. ... parent_id= The ECU is on the left..

I'll see if I can get hold of VanAgain and point him towards this thread.

Funk, correct me if I am wrong but the DJ engine uses the Digijet injection system, correct? We never had any DJ engine vans here in the USA but I have a local customer that has a DJ engine Doka that I worked on last year so I think I am remembering correctly.

I would do a test of the temp II sensor at the ECU plug. I have found recently that the engine wiring harness itself can degrade over time (chocolate anyone) and you can change sensors until the cows come home (USA saying) and you will still have issues cropping up intermittantly. Do you have an ohm meter and access to the Bentley Manual or a similar manual for your model van? You want to unplug the ECU and then test the two pins that the book references for Temp II resistance when the van is cold. Then unplug the sensor itself and test the sensor to see if the resistance readings are the same. If they are and the Temp II sensor is reading good for the temperature according to the chart in the book, then it shouldn't be the problem. If the reading at the sensor is wrong replace the sensor. If the reading at the ECU is wrong but the sensor is good then it could be the wiring and you should test that. Signal wire to ECU plug and ground from Temp II plug to head should be checked for resistance. If the wire is found to be bad (should have zero resistance or very close to it) then it should be replaced. Not a big deal really.

If the tempII sensor and wiring are found to be OK, and you have replaced the Ignition Control Module (on the firewall near the coil with a aluminum heat sink on it), then it is most likely the hall effect sensor inside the distributor. If you could get me a picture of yours (I think it has a vacuum advance/retard unit on it) I can give you the part number for the proper replacement, or we sell rebuilt distributors that have replacement hall sensors already installed if you want to go that way. The hall sensor is just a magnet and a spinning metal wheel with slots cut in it. As the wheel turns it induces a voltage (thank you Michael Faraday- British dude), and these small pulses are used by the computer to tell the coil when to fire. The unit can become flakey with age and work and not work whenever it feels like it making troubleshooting it difficult. It can also feel like someone is turning the key off and back on again when it is acting up. If you have a tach you will see the needle drop to nothing and then pop back up, etc.

Finally, I have seen coils rarely cause this issue as well. Check the coil to see if any brown stuff is leaking out (they are actually made of chocolate for real . If it is replace it. Have the van running and wiggle the black wires that are plugged into the coil. Sometimes the ends of the wires look like they are plugged in and everything is great, but really they are almost broken or loose and you hit a bump or something and the whole van will cut out (had this happen on my last Belize trip and those roads are so bumpy the engine was bucking like a bronco).

Take a look at these items and get back to us and let us know what you find. Also if you could take some pictures of the distributor and the coil area that would help me know better what I am dealing with.

Last resort, fly my wife and I over and I'll have it fixed in about 30 minutes and then we can spend the next couple weeks "testing" the van by touring the UK country side. Just a thought

Thank you again Mr vanagain.
You seem to be a jolly nice chap.

Great input again there (like what our Aidan is to gearboxes )

May I modestly take a bow for introducing Ken to our forum

wow thanks for getting back to me slow quickly Ken. Let me take a good read through...

..Would love to fly you and your wife over so you can fix it in 30mins!! Might even be cheaper as I seem to adopt the replace something and hope for the best approach

DJ engine uses the Digijet injection system

Yes I believe that is correct

test the two pins that the book references for Temp II resistance when the van is cold. Then unplug the sensor itself and test the sensor to see if the resistance readings are the same

Does anyone have an idea what the resistrance should be?

the problem is ambient temperature when checking the t2s, that and they can be intermittent faults, once you have all the earths clean and true and ALL the other connections clean and well made including the starter motor and if you've still a problem then start buying cheapest 1st (I have a large box of spares which I never needed, all I needed to do was clean it up) you really need the Haines manual as most of the stuff on the net is for the American market if when searching you put vanagon first then loads of results will appear

mark

lifted this offof here (thank you mr harryman)
BLUE

Open circuit (5k~7k ohms) when cold (0 C) - 1000 ohms at 50C; 200 ohms at 95C

Its just as often broken wiring or bad connections from that sensor, but change it anyway if in doubt...

lifted this offof the samba.
There are no fuses in the vital engine control circuits. This is true on German and Swedish cars in general, and a lot of other types.

When you key on and you hear the fuel pump run for a bit, you know a number things are true:

#15 circuit is being powered by the ignition switch, among many other things, that circuit powers or triggers relays that switch power to all engine control systems.

The FI relays have #30 battery power to them, so connections at alternator and inside junction box are intact.

Main FI relay is closing, meaning #15 power is reaching the ignition coil as well since the connection that triggers the relay is made there.

ECU is receiving power via the main FI relay, and has at least basic power-up circuits working because....

the fuel pump relay is closing. The ECU triggers the fuel pump relay when it powers up.

And you know the fuel pump has power and a working ground.

Now knowing these things are true when the key is switched on does not necessarily mean they are true when the engine is being cranked. If it cranks you know the #50 circuit is being powered by the ignition switch. But you don't know whether power to #15 is dropping out while the ign. switch is in the cranking position. So look at the idiot lights; if they remain on while cranking, the ign.switch is keeping power on #15 while cranking as it should.

So, just keying on, cranking however briefly, and looking at the idiot lights tells you a lot of things about some of the essential electric circuits that are required for the engine to run. You don't know much about the quality of some of the switching or connections, just that the circuits are being closed at minimum.

colouredFunk wrote:I've just found a load of comments/tests done by recovery company last time I broke down before getting towed.

-Checked fuses etc repaired injector wire
-Checked for HT + Fuel fuel deliver OK
-No HT checked output from coil no HT
-Bridge HT checked no spark generated
-Suspect Module U/S

What is a U/S?

Does this help any other clever person on here debug the problem?

Does this fit with the recent comments?

Here is a link to the chart of resistance readings at particular temperatures for the Bosch TempII sensor:
http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs ... 0c2ac2.gif

The way to do troubleshooting of a problem is to go about it methodically and check things off one at a time. A bunch of random advice cut and pasted from another website isn't really that helpful. This is why some shops are terrible at troubleshooting and they just replace parts one after the other until the customer either runs out of money or they get lucky. If you take your time and go step by step, you can usually find the problem within 30 minutes and be reasonably sure that the money spent on replacement parts is going to actually fix the problem.

Let me know if I can help you further.

vanagain wrote: The way to do troubleshooting of a problem is to go about it methodically and check things off one at a time. A bunch of random advice cut and pasted from another website isn't really that helpful. This is why some shops are terrible at troubleshooting and they just replace parts one after the other until the customer either runs out of money or they get lucky. If you take your time and go step by step, you can usually find the problem within 30 minutes and be reasonably sure that the money spent on replacement parts is going to actually fix the problem.

.

You must have the same drum as me ..I've been banging this one for some time
Sherlock Holmes had it right.

'Eliminate all other factors, and the one which remains must be the truth.'

Good to see you on here Ken. I've linked to your videos a few times and I'm sure the US/Anglo link will be good thing all round. Also, 'cows come home' is well used here too (at least over the last 70 years) so may have even older origins.

Aha, I was right:

Phrase Finder says:

The precise time and place of the coining of this colloquial phrase isn't known. It was certainly before 1829 though, and may well have been in Scotland. The phrase appeared in print in The Times in January that year, when the paper reported a suggestion of what the Duke of Wellington should do if he wanted to maintain a place as a minister in Peel's cabinet:

until the cows come homeIf the Duke will but do what he unquestionably can do, and propose a Catholic Bill with securities, he may be Minister, as they say in Scotland "until the cows come home."

Groucho Marx was never one to pass up an opportunity for a play on words and this occurs in his dialogue of the 1933 film Duck Soup:

"I could dance with you till the cows come home. Better still, I'll dance with the cows and you come home."