Club 80-90 Forums

i have been using synthetic oils be it semi or fully for every thing that sally and i own(d) for the last 15 years. cars and bikes from the 50's to the naughtys, (around 30 different vehicles) i have only been driving/riding for 18years. with no adverse effects. so long as it meets/exceeds the ome specs i dont see the problem. if it leaked once synthetic oil has been added it's not the caused by the oil it's the engine.

funny how in the past people who recomended synthetic oils were shot down in flames.

neil

axeman wrote: funny how in the past people who recomended synthetic oils were shot down in flames.

neil

Neil the difference is that THESE people know what they are talking about, not merely copy and pasting endless links to technical data.

Ian

Ian Hulley wrote:

axeman wrote: funny how in the past people who recomended synthetic oils were shot down in flames.

neil

Neil the difference is that THESE people know what they are talking about, not merely copy and pasting endless links to technical data.

Ian

behave ian,
any one working on any engine should do some kind of research as to what they are doing. with an oil change all i look for is the api rating thats required and the outside temp variants. in the uk we are fortunate to be able to use the same grade of oil all year round, unlike norway for instance where i have experienced -30c to +30 with in 6 month (august to january)

several times you have told people to to drain the engines after putting a synthetic oil in and questioned them selfs on this forum. when myself and a few others have attempted to convince these posters that they are in fact not going to harm there engines by using a synthetic based oil. the fact of the matter is engine oil is engine oil it is the life blood of any engine, even more so in diesle. you dont need to have a degree in mechanical engineering to make a decision on what to put in, common sence is all thats needed. dose it meet the ome stardards or not?
vw specs
vw501.01
api sf or sg

no where in my instruction manual dose it specify a mineral oil quite the opposite it states
"quite naturaly engine oil are also being continually developed, for this reason the statements in the instruction manual are only in line with the current state at the time of going to press .

question for those who are still using a mineral oil, are you also always on the look out for g11 coolant? as thats what was what they were designed to use not the modern g12 or g12+?

neil

Behave?
Ian is expessing his opinion
You'd do well to respect that

axeman wrote:no where in my instruction manual dose it specify a mineral oil quite the opposite it states
"quite naturaly engine oil are also being continually developed, for this reason the statements in the instruction manual are only in line with the current state at the time of going to press .

It's even more explicit than that... Have a look at the third para of P72 of the owner's handbook as available at http://www.westfaliat3.info/VW_T25_Inst ... iaT3WM.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...we strongly recommend that only the following mineral and synthetic oils, which have been tested by us, are used...

(My highlighting)

The actual (mouldy and aged, 7/87 dated) paper manual that we got with our van is in German, which I'm FAR from fluent in, but it does seem to look very similar in basic layout, and does say "synthetische"...

Kev - It seems to me that Neil is giving Ian more respect that Ian gives those who don't share his opinion. Only one person in this thread has even implied, let alone explicitly stated, that others don't "know what they are talking about".

Its also worth noting that there can be an enormous price difference between mineral and synthetic too so the choice, technical considerations aside, is sometimes down to what you can afford.

I've always had a routine of swapping out the oil based on mileage as well as visual inspection and been driving and maintaining v-dubs for many, many years, including highly-tuned lumps. In fact I used to use Shell Rimula (a diesel oil) in a bug I once had and it seemed to really like that. As said, use what you feel happy with - just change it regular. Even in the WIKI we don't say that mineral is better than synthetic or vice versa. The main thing is that it meets specs and is never neglected.

That said, I'm not inclined to spend £30+ on engine oil either. I can see the logic on an engine that regularly revs its nuts off (most modern engines do) but its difficult to compare the ploddy flat four to the plethora of complex engines in use these days. Synthetics are continually evolving to meet those needs with mutigrades that far exceed oil you could buy even ten years ago. No reason why synthetic can't be used but motoring is an increasingly expensive hobby. The need to change filter and oil at regular intervals still holds true so I guess you need to average out the cost.

Most people drive these buses cos they're relatively cheap to maintain, even if sometimes thirsty on fuel. My stepfather's KIA jeep thingy uses oil that costs a whopping £100 a gallon. To my mind thats just insane....

Anyway, this thread, like the many before it, will go on and on I expect.

axeman wrote: several times you have told people to to drain the engines after putting a synthetic oil in and questioned them selfs on this forum.

No Neil, actually MANY times I've told people with oil-related issues to go back to their known-good start point ... i.e. back to the oil their old engines have been running on for years. On many (if not most) occasions that has helped, standard proceedure is to revert back to the situation before the issue surfaced ... a System Restore if you will.

Steve and Aidan (both of whome know exactly what they are doing) have run their trials and have had no issues and that is great, and those engines will no-doubt be absolutely fine. In industry we have always been told by oil companies that an olde engine shouldn't be swapped onto later synthetic products (fantastic and better grade though it may be).

Many thanks, Ian.

Ian Hulley wrote:

axeman wrote: several times you have told people to to drain the engines after putting a synthetic oil in and questioned them selfs on this forum.

No Neil, actually MANY times I've told people with oil-related issues to go back to their known-good start point ... i.e. back to the oil their old engines have been running on for years. On many (if not most) occasions that has helped, standard proceedure is to revert back to the situation before the issue surfaced ... a System Restore if you will.

Steve and Aidan (both of whome know exactly what they are doing) have run their trials and have had no issues and that is great, and those engines will no-doubt be absolutely fine. In industry we have always been told by oil companies that an olde engine shouldn't be swapped onto later synthetic products (fantastic and better grade though it may be).

Many thanks, Ian.

Let's leave it to a quick search for posts you've made containing the word "synthetic" (but excluding the word "gearbox" for clarity), eh?
https://club8090.co.uk/forum/search.php? ... ian+hulley" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is nothing to do with me, it's Steve and Aidan's thread.

I have nothing to add Adrian ... if you wish I will leave it for YOU to help the nice people with your extensive knowledge of T25s ? One thing I would advise though is that neither you OR Neil make threats to me ... at all.

Ian

If we can just get back to the discussion in hand and resist temptations to turn this into a pissing contest....
The tests Aidan & Steve have carried out come as no surprise to me. In Aidan's case, I'm guessing his engine is extremely well maintained, over serviced even. Therefore, Ian's worries about dirt build up being shifted by the improved detergent characteristics of synthetic oil causing leaks cannot really be proved or disproved in Aidan's case.
Obviously we haven't been given all the information on Steve's test vehicles, whether these fall into the same category as Aidan's or more importantly, fall into the mainstream where owners sometimes don't know engine history and service intervals are not strictly adhered to.
This I suggest, more common category, is much more likely to prove or disprove these particular views.
As with all testing of theories, the sample has to be significant for the results to be accurate. Thus far, the sample tests are just too small to draw any real conclusions.

PS: then we come down to personal experience. In my case, the one and only time I filled my engine with some 'FREE' Castrol part synthetic Magnatec (SAE 10W-40; API SL/CF; ACEA A3/B4; VW 501 01/505 00; MB-APPROVAL 229.1; Fiat 9.55535.D2) it tappet rattled every three or four cold starts and so I ended up dropping it and refilling with 15W40 mineral whereby all was well. NOTE* VW501 01 spec on the Magnetec.
Personally I have no axe to grind with the recommendation or otherwise of synthetic oils, my gripes are just with the lower viscosity causing tappet drain.

Martin

California Dreamin wrote: If manufacturers made a fully synthetic 15W40 I'd be on it like a flash as I know in my case going any thinner brings regular tappet bleed down. Like I say, this obviously varies from engine to engine.

Actual question, not having a go: 0w-40 and 15w-40 are the same thickness when hot. They both get thicker as they cool, the 15W more so than the 0W. The thinnest point is hot though, so if bleed down was to happen, wouldn't it happen hot??? We used to have a Mitsi Mirage (POS) and it would have super noisy tappets, sometimes for the entire 15 minute trip to town. I put in some oil flush, and it was quiet. Then I changed the oil, and it was loud. I put more flush in it and left it in (thinned the oil) and the tappets would only tap for a few seconds. So I changed to a lower winter graded oil (I think it was 0W-40) and it stayed good - assuming it the thinner oil pumped up the tappets faster as it flowed better. The tappets were poked, of course.

Ian Hulley wrote: In industry we have always been told by oil companies that an olde engine shouldn't be swapped onto later synthetic products (fantastic and better grade though it may be).

That's not my experience. Most companies are happy to recommend synthetics in old engines, as long as the other standards are met. They used to recommend not running it in old worn out engines because the synthetic may dislodge deposits. In reality, they have learned this is not the case. Any cleaning effect of high "detergent" oils is very slow, and "detergents" only actually hold the dirt in suspension, to STOP it forming deposits, not to dissolve deposits. Our Ford Model A is as happy on synthetic as anything else. However, I run a semi synthetic 10W-40 because of the 500 mile changes.

The Mobil Oil site: http://www.mobiloil.com/usa-english/mot ... x?option=1 recommends Mobil 1 0W-40 for the "vanagon" in the US. Shell recommends either: (premium) HELIX ULTRA 5W-40 - full synthetic , or (standard) Helix HX7 10W-40 (semi Synth at least).

Besides... how much faith does an average person have in an Oil company? About the same as a tobacco company???

Quote: so if bleed down was to happen, wouldn't it happen hot???
No....it happens when weak tappets are under load (when the engine stops in a particular position) over several days or longer. So it's the cold viscosity that's important in regards to bleed off.

As to contradict myself, as I do regularly, I agree that the thinner oil fills the elements up quicker....gets rid of the noise in a shorter time.

Think about it.....when this does happen the only way to get rid of the noise is to get the engine hot and being worked (higher oil pressure) so when the oil is at it's thinnest which then purges the air out of the elements.

Martin

California Dreamin wrote:Quote: so if bleed down was to happen, wouldn't it happen hot???
No....it happens when weak tappets are under load (when the engine stops in a particular position) over several days or longer. So it's the cold viscosity that's important in regards to bleed off.

Sounds fair! I guess the pressure is on the tappet for longer when it's at "room temp". I never experienced it with my WBX.

I think I've had the opposite problem on a subaru and our BMW. It I start the car when it's dead cold, and run it for 10 seconds, then shut it off and leave it, it will pump UP a lifter or two and and then it won't run on all cylinders. The BMW set a misfire code, but fixed itself after a couple of minutes running. The subaru was hard to start, then drove to the end of the orad and stopped - it had NO compression, so I put my foot flat down and wound it for about 1 minute, until it slowly started picking up , 1 cylinder at a time!

I guess the high cold oil pressure held long enough to push the lifters open that had no load on them.

California Dreamin wrote: As to contradict myself, as I do regularly, I agree that the thinner oil fills the elements up quicker....gets rid of the noise in a shorter time.

Think about it.....when this does happen the only way to get rid of the noise is to get the engine hot and being worked (higher oil pressure) so when the oil is at it's thinnest which then purges the air out of the elements.

So we just need thick oil when hot, and thin when cold

So we just need thick oil when hot, and thin when cold

Errrr no....other way around!
But as has been demonstrated, it would appear some users may be fine with the thinner grade. At least if it does start suffering from regular cold start rattling you will know what you have to do to stop it happening.

Martin

You want an oil that maintains it's film strength over as wide a temperature range as possible. That's what keeps the metal surfaces apart and prevents wear. It is also desirable to keep the viscosity as constant as possible too.

From what I've seen in the few wbx's I've stripped so far (not loads, only about half a dozen) it's not the tappets that wear much at all. They are far harder than the camshaft lobes, which seem to have a very thin case hardening on top of cheese-grade iron. They all have exhibited dramatic wear which I can only put down to old, dirty, petrol-diluted and ineffective oil being pumped round and round the system.

The flat 4 works the cam lobes very hard because each lobe does double duty, unlike an inline or vee engine. They don't get much of a chance for the lobe surface to pick up any oil or cool down between closing one valve to opening the next.

Tappets that drain down quickly is due to carbon deposits unseating the tiny ball-valve inside isn't it?

I have just changed the c.200k SA engine from using 15W40 to 10W40 CAF own-brand semi-synthetic oil (20W50 was the OEM grade) and guess what? Oil consumption has dropped quite a bit!

PS I have also put the same 10W40 oil in the (unknown) wbx SS engine and it's happy as larry. On that experience alone I'll change to a better quality 5W40 at the next change.