Club 80-90 Forums

I guess being whacked in the face with a 500 mph Witter will sting a little..

I will go through the stuff I have been saving and take a look, it was mentioned but I cant remember off the top of my head.

Jed

The tow ball is very likely to slowly bend downwards as the load increases....then just at the point of maximum loading pop over the ball and kill someone..that's if the rusty old bolts don't give out first...some cheapy towbars can bend under (and I mean bend under...not under! ) the weight of a trailer let alone a van bugee jumping on its ball..a hitch with loop type receiver pin would better as the shackle cant get free...but still depends on the chassis fixings of course..

max and caddy wrote:The tow ball is very likely to slowly bend downwards as the load increases....then just at the point of maximum loading pop over the ball and kill someone..that's if the rusty old bolts don't give out first...some cheapy towbars can bend under (and I mean bend under...not under! ) the weight of a trailer let alone a van bugee jumping on its ball..a hitch with loop type receiver pin would better as the shackle cant get free...but still depends on the chassis fixings of course..

10/10

Jed

theres a goog example about 45 seconds into this film
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... x0aekbZu5c#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;!

syncro up wrote: Do we know anyone with a rear mounted winch?
I've been trying to find an easy way to fit a front one but it appears it's only syncro services who make a mounting plate and so far I'm not getting any reply to the emails, although I know he's probably busy with personal stuff.

I was wondering if we could mount a winch ontop of the towbar cross beam. There are issues with this location that on the single cab the winch woud stop the engine hatch from opening. Which brings in iteration two where we remove the circular cross bar (westy type) and fabricate a beam which allows the winch to sit down. I don't have any concerns that the beam could be fabricated strong enough to do the job, it's more a question of the tow bar mounts to the vehicle being strong enough.

Although ironically this solution is taking me away from the ideal of a simple and easy to install winch solution.

Hopefully a certain housetrained engineer will be coming up with some very sexy front mounts in the next few months and also we are looking at the possibility of being able to attach a winch to the rear. However I hear he is snowed under with work but they will be coming soon

The tow ball is very likely to slowly bend downwards as the load increases....then just at the point of maximum loading pop over the ball and kill someone..that's if the rusty old bolts don't give out first..

Well

Weren't we talking tow-bars being a problem, not tow ball hitching

For the latter anyway, a combined pin/ball hitch like mine seems fine, and not seen a decent strop jump off a ball yet, and of course there is nothing to kill anyone if it did, a textile strop might whip you nastily at worst, we don't tend to use wire ropes. But yes, the ball could bend back a smidge and let a strop or rope slip off

Have had a kinteic rope for about 5 years, bought it off Terry. It remains unused by him or me. We have always discouraged use of kinetic recovery at SN events, since early days; though I notice some are starting to carry them now and we must make sure that everyone carrying one is aware and briefed that extra precautions are necessary if its use is contemplated!

Can't imagine any reasonable towbar on a Syncro ever breaking a mounting bolt (3 per chassis leg is standard fit, two M12 and an M14 per side in single shear (about 200 tons at guess + the clamping friction along arms).

Yes they can bend at the limit I suppose, but not break unless previously fractured (like anything else). What would that limit would be to bend?
My aftermarket square section one got hit by a Renault Clio doing probably 20 mph more than me, wrote it off (rad back into engine and beyond), centre of tow-bar just about touching rear valance so 2" deflection, was suitably straightened spatch-cocked across a 10 ton hydraulic press. Chassis rails still true, as far as I can determine, tow-bar arms slid straight back in, maybe a few thou out.



That video, Treffen, what a melée, people, mums with children everywhere, diggers digging whilst Syncros charging about towing, being yanked unceremoniously.. chaos!
Didn't see a rope jump off, maybe that tow bar was bent though.

I've been near Landy lads when wire ropes have broken with a lot of people not just around but very close. They tend to winch as a habit from what I've seen, whereas we tend to just pull out. Also we hopefully marshall the recovery better, up until we start running around like headless chickens... that is the thing to worry about... not necessarily any small detail, but the general loss of decorum and caution that should accompany any recovery e.g. the human factors are easily as important as mechanical ones.

On that theme...
Tom & others have asked whether we can do more recovery techniques, lessons and demos, which I think is a good suggestion, from a general training & interest point of view, but also from the 'drill' angle. To ensure that most arund at a recovery already know what to look for, how to organise, how to behave and not to rush... nor end up at cross purposes with adjacent recoveries. The more it is formalised the better IMO. The Syncronauts Committee have discussed this suggestion recently.

HarryMann wrote:
For the latter anyway, a combined pin/ball hitch like mine seems fine, and not seen a decent strop jump off a ball yet, and of course there is nothing to kill anyone if it did, a textile strop might whip you nastily at worst, we don't tend to use wire ropes. But yes, the ball could bend back a smidge and let a strop or rope slip off

Have had a kinteic rope for about 5 years, bought it off Terry. It remains unused by him or me. We have always discouraged use of kinetic recovery at SN events, though I notice some are starting to carry them now and bring the subject up when recovery time comes around.

Hi Clive,

I carry a Kinetic recovery rope as you know, in fact as we are planning a trip to Africa this year I have been kindly given another one too that I plan to try out in configuration with my existing one and plan on practicing techniques I have been studying over the last year or so. When you say "We have always discouraged use of kinetic recovery at SN events" would I be correct in thinking that the SN committee in one of their discussions on or off the AGM would prefer people like me not to bring a kinetic rope?

If so I would be happy to leave it at home and develop any skills I have been interested in for a while away from SN events, but it would be a shame because SP is the perfect place to take things from your head into the real world. Last year at SP I had a great time with Syncro Andy, Aiden, Alan, and Tom putting things I had put in my head about winch techniques and team dynamics (I had been watching a lot of 2009 Camel Trophy stuff at the time) and took a lot away from that and I am a better off road driver because of it.

I am happy to leave my Kinetic ropes and new safety loops and bag at home along with the techniques I have been studying and wait until we hit the desert before we get chance to try them out if its frond upon by the committee. I am happy to watch people get a nasty textile strop whip at the worst from using a tow bar from a distance though and will have my safety goggles with me to compliment my flip flops

Jed

HarryMann wrote:
I've been near Landy lads when wire ropes have broken with a lot of people not just around but very close. They tend to winch as a habit from what I've seen, whereas we tend to just pull out. Also we hopefully marshall the recovery better, up until we start running around like headless chickens... that is the thing to worry about... not necessarily any small detail, but the general loss of decorum and caution that should accompany any recovery e.g. the human factors are easily as important as mechanical ones.

On that theme...
Tom & others have asked whether we can do more recovery techniques, lessons and demos, which I think is a good suggestion, from a general training & interest point of view, but also from the 'drill' angle. To ensure that most arund at a recovery already know what to look for, how to organise, how to behave and not to rush... nor end up at cross purposes with adjacent recoveries. The more it is formalised the better IMO. The Syncronauts Committee have discussed this suggestion recently.

Ahhh you read my PM and watched the links then?

Jed

I have had a kinetic since the beginning and it has been used at events and elsewhere quite happily, though others have shied away from using it when proffered - I have that plus a standard 8m snatch rope plus lots of shackles, and a couple of strops and the hi lift

Lack of a proper rear cross member and proper front member to mount recovery eyes on IS a problem for the syncro, I have two front standard towing eyes on mine and use a strop to spread the load across the two, Westie syncro towbar at the back, and lots of care and everybody out of the way and one person in charge of the recovery

The Most Important thing I think is not to get stuck, or really stupidly stuck, and stay on the route ; most of the bigger recoveries we've ever had to do have been where peeps have driven into something you can clearly see can't be negotiated by a syncro (or a G-wagen )or where a group has been off the correct route (that sideslope in Devon is a footpath) or where someone has drowned a vehicle being a 'hero'

HarryMann wrote:

That video, Treffen, what a melée, people, mums with children everywhere, diggers digging whilst Syncros charging about towing, being yanked unceremoniously.. chaos!

i agree its madness i think thats what you get when you hold a general meet for all t25´s and then add a bit of offroad driving into the mix, it means that you have way to many spectators walking around wondering why they don´t own a syncro

Shows how unobservant I am...

No, we haven't had that discussion. It goes back a long way and no doubt I've made assumptions.

And no, I don't think anyone has a big problem with it, but its true to say, because of
cost and it being rarely needed we didn't actively encourage it (kinetic rope use)

The issue is stored energy of course, many times what a textile strop or a wire rope
stores. This is where Aidans use of a Y-strop off two chassis eyes would be de rigueur!

Jed, bring it and demo it. All we discussed at the AGM was demonstrating & practising the use of recovery
techniques so everyone can benefit.
(This arose from 2 incidents in successive years on Devon BOATS, but not on the footpath Aidan is thinking of)

PS. I'll be bringing mine then this year then as well as the new Syncronauts 90ft plasma rope