Ford Mondeo st220 into '88 Caravelle

[R0B]

Having bought a couple of "good used" auto boxes in the past. I decided to have the last one that died rebuilt. It wasn't cheap but neither were the ones that were supposedly good.

[Dueller]

Having bought a couple of "good used" auto boxes in the past. I decided to have the last one that died rebuilt. It wasn't cheap but neither were the ones that were supposedly good.

Hi Rob, that's my thinking too, anything worthwhile will need a rebuild, parts will probably run me to £450 but will sort over winter

[pantswagen]

Hello,

If you would have used the s type jaguar sump on it....
it has a apendage that would have stuck out the back and cleared
but the main thing is, its shallow at its mid drift
enabling you to affix the crossmember there and not have it hang down so low
also, OF you would have used the stock s type rwd engine mountings
they bolt on where the poil cooler and filter sit on an st220 on the one side
and on the other is a mirror image
PLUS the stock s type jaguar engine mounts are really long - 5 to 5 inches deep
you could have maybe sat them on the stock x - member

also there are a multitude of intake manifolds that would fit
1. a plastic mazda bongo 3.0 intake - lOW
2. the early s type jag -= NO idle air control valve jiblets and fbw
3. the later s type - slightly different but like the above fbw
4. the 2.1 x type jaguar intake, this does have a built in idle air control valve BUT its on the throttle body itself
5. the 2.5 and 3.0 x type jag fwd intakes - again fbw no built in iac
6. the usa lincoln - it is similar to a late s type but has an iac
7. the rocketeer mazda conversion dual plenum intake system.
8 the ford maverick 3.0 also - but i think its the same as the mazda but its still plastic.

the s type flywheel is dual mass for the rwd gearbox, its a getrag 221, 5 speed really short

getting back to the front of the engine

the later x type fwd engines use a differnet layout than the fords, i.e the power steering pump isnt up in the valley
it bolts to the side, as do the alternator

IF you would have fitted a rwd s type engine, the water pump would have been to the rear of your van, these are if you like independant of the block and arranged so as to be able to have the porting or positioning of the hoses where ever you choose.
note the front timing cover of a 1999 - 2002 s type differs from the 2002 up engines, these are available in both 2.5 and 3.0 , they then go to continuous variable valve timing as opposed to a switched vvt of the earlier 3.0

note the water pumps do not interchange.

the sump from the x type will give you more capacity, its similar to the mondeo, but deeper.

 

[pantswagen]

the other one is....
IF you planned on running a 5 speed 094 gearbox - why wouldnt you?
if you took the rwd jaguar s type getrag 221 gearbox
you could slice the bell off further down and perhaps make an rjes style bell housing
with it to swap bells 
this might benefit you as yu would get the jags hydrauilic thrust bearing
it would also put the starter motor, which is really small on the lower edge
-note the sandwich plate differs s type and mondeo/x type
the positioning of the engine face dowels also is different.
 

[pantswagen]

what i think i meant too was, 
maybe you need to be mindful of oil surge?
the mondeo and x type oil pans are designed for a transverse installation
whereas the s type is longditudional
the early and later sumps for the s type are different, the later has a bolt on frontal part
remember the engine mounting on the passenger side in a stock s type set up incorporates the oil cooler and oil filter mountings and sticks the oil filter rearward at an angle.

 

[Aidan]

Hello pantswagen, where are you ?

I'm guessing you have spent a lot of time on the Samba researching all this, or works/worked for an installer who has been down this deep rabbit hole.

Whereas the OP is a very hands on practical guy taking what he has and making it fit without doing a ton of research into what has been done before, or buying parts off the shelf, which is a bit more typical of home-brew engine conversions here rather than the 'mericans style 9 a bit anal for our taste often) or a professional workshop installation designed to be repeated and provided to customers - inspirational rather than money making. I hope the OP doesn't mind me summarising it thus.

[pantswagen]

elastic trickery
ecu pin out for mondeo v6
must be for mondeo st220 as there is no imrc pin out from the ecu on pin 3
does however mention pre and post feb 2003 - for smart alternator

Pin by pin....If there's more than 1 pin going to something it is labeled like this......13/15/16.

4/59 (After Feb 03)Alternator
8. Outside air intake temp sensor
13/15/16 Data link connector
17. Engine coolant blower motor relay 2
19/53. Immobiliser control module
20. Injector 3
21/22. Crankshaft position sensor
24/25/51/77/103 Earth point 6
26/52/78. Ignition coil pack
27. Starter motor relay
28. Cruise control module, gas headlight discharge control module, audio unit, sunroof control module, nav control module and telematics control module
31. Power steering pressure switch
35/100 Heated oxygen sensor 3
36/88 MAF
38. Engine cooling temp sensor
39. Air intake temp sensor
40. Fuel pump
41/86. AC refridgerant dual presssure switch
42. Multifunction control module and clock
49/50. Data link connector and instrument panel
54. Fuel pump relay
55. F32 3 Amp
58. Vehicle speed sensor
59/72 (before Feb 03) Alternator
60/93 Heated oxygen sensor 1
61/101 Heated oxygen sensor 4
64. Clutch pedal position switch
67. EVAP canister purge valve
68. Engine coolant blower motor relay 1
69. Wide open throttle relay
70. Injector 1
71/97. F42 10 Amp
76/85 Camshaft postion sensor
83. Idle control valve
87/99. Heated oxygen sensor 2
89/90. Throttle position sensor
91. Air intake and outside air temp sensors 12v supply
92. Brake and clutch pedal position switch
94. Injector 5
95. Injector 4
96. Injector 2
98. Injector 6
thats for example a 2.5 v6 mondeo engine with imrc

this is st170 4 cylinder focus, note th eecu pin outs are similar and it gives you wire colour information and better info
This is to give those people that are interested in running an ST170 engine on a budget the basic wiring information. months of work this.

The key to using the ecu is the Pat's immobilizer. You must get atleast one key with chip that is matched to the ecu.

Ford 104 pin Focus ST170 2003 “ 3NFA” Pcm plug.





Missing numbers have no connection and are not used on the Pcm.

Pin number -- colour -- function.

03 white/red--IMRC pin4
09 white/black--Barometric sensor pin 3
12 black/white –IMRC pin 3
13 orange/black--DLC pin 13 modal program.
15 blue/black-- DLC pin 10 scp-.
16 grey/orange-- DLC pin2 scp+.
17 black/white – high speed fan.
19 grey/orange -- Pats TX signal.
20 black/blue -- Injector 3 switched earth.
21 white/red -- crankshaft position sensor +.
22 brown/rd --crankshaft position sensor -.
24 black/yellow -- earth.
25 black/red -- earth.
26 black/orange – coil pin 1.
27 black/red -- start inhibit relay.
28 white/violet – telemetric.
31 black/yellow -- Power steering pressure switch.
32 brown/yellow—knock sensor pin 1.
35 white/red— HSO2 1 pin 4.
36 brown/blue -- MAF pin 4.
37 white/green—fuel rail pressure switch pin 1.
38 white -- coolant temp sensor pin 1.
39 white violet -- Air temp in MAF pin1.
40 green/black -- fuel pump driver pin 7.
41 green/yellow -- A/C clutch pressure switch.
42 black/orange -- PATS Led.
43 white/blue –- Trip computer.
45 black/red—vvt solenoid pin 2.
46 black/green—Engine run relay
49 blue/red—DLC pin 14 can-.
50 grey/red—DLC pin 6 can+.
51 black/yellow -- earth.
52 black/green -- coil pin 3.
53 white/green -- Pats RX signal.
54 black/white -- fuel pump driver pin 1.
55 red-- KAM perm live.
56 black/blue—evap pin 2.
57 white/black—knock sensor pin 2.
58 white/blue -- Vehicle speed Sensor pin 2.
59 grey – Alternator pin 1.
60 white -- HO2S 1 signal
64 white --clutch switch.
68 black/blue – engine cooling fan.
69 black/yellow -- Ac wot relay
70 black/white -- injector 1 pin2.
71 green/yellow -- switched 12v from power relay.
72 blue—alternator pin 2.
76 white/violet -- Cam position sensor pin 1.
77 black/yellow -- earth.
83 green/yellow -- idle air control valve pin 2.
85 brown/white -- camshaft position sensor pin 2.
86 white/red -- Ac high pressure switch.
88 white/blue -- MAF pin 5..
89 white -- throttle position sensor pin 2.
90 yellow -- 5v Voltage Reference (5v out from ecu)
91 brown -- sensor common brown
93 black/yellow -- HO2S 1 heater control.
95 black/orange -- injector 4 pin 2.
96 black/yellow -- injector 2 pin 2.
97 green/yellow -- switched 12v.
100 black/blue – HO2S 2 pin 2.
103 black/yellow -- earth.

 

[pantswagen]

now, IF you have already done an st170 4 cylinder conversion and followed wasa's tech how to 
"How to" OEM Focus ST170 ecu with Pats info. (locostbuilders.co.uk)
read until the end as he reiterates the wireing for the 
the ford pats transponder chip and key ring 4 wires to the pats aerial
the wireing in out for the obd-2 connection its 5 wires to it
remember you need to ground the clutch switch wire as it will act similarily to a neutral safety switch on an automatic
the vapour purge valve doesnt go back to the tank, the cannister on them there things goes to the engine
it goes petrol tank - black plastic charcoal cannister - purge valve and into the engine, if you like venting the tank of vapour - i.e. a vapour emmisions system
note on a v6 engine  - they have 4 oxygen sensors in the exhaust system
pre and post cat both sides, there are 4 wires to each sensor, the four wires consist on positive and earth and the feed and return back to the ecu
info need to be gleaned realistically as to the physical position of injector 1-6 on the engine
and the position on the exhaust of the oxygen sensors, 
this is because, 
IF it were possible to run a 3.0 ford ecu on a jaguar s type engine from 1999 - 2002
the ecu from them is can bus - fly by wire.
it may be possible to use any 104 pin ecu plug and tails cut from any ford 
knowing the positions on the ecu for the iwres to run the engine you could connect the can bus s type loom into
the ford ecu plug.
then buy
a throttle body 'cable' with a built in iac = plug the tps into the stock 104 v6 ecu
buy a purge valve - plug that into the stock ecu
do the 2.5 or 3.0 fuel rail and fuel system
connect the ignition key aerial to the ecu
connect the obd-2 port
connect the 4 oxygen sensors
get a 6 bank coil doofer and plug and the 6 ht leads
the maff sensor and wires
the throttle position sensor
the iac and wires
i still do know what way around the 4 oxygen sensors go 1 - 2- 3- 4
looking at the front of the engine - is the left exhaust manifold bank 1 first oxy sensor 1
and the post cat on that side -2 = and the right side first oxy sensor 3 and the post cat on the right side -4 ?
similarily with the injector location - looking at the front of the engine 'timing cover' 3 on the left and three on the right
which one is number 1 = 
does it go
front left 1,
middle left 2
back left 3
front right 4
middle left 5
back left 6

because, IF you all had this information, you could make a loom from a sourced s type engine
buy a ford v6 ecu and key - with the aerial
buy an obd-2 port - they are now 6 quid on ebay
loacte the vapour can from any vehicle as i think they are a generic part = so may well be the charcoal cannister
also worth noting , the 4 wire oxygen sensors may well be a generic item, what i mean here is, you never seem to get them ANYWAY when buying a used engine, as someone has already cut the cats off and weighed them in, so it may well be MUCH easier from the get go - especially if buying some stainless st200 exhaust manifolds, to buy 4 new generic 4 wire oxy sensors, and two new stainless bungs, and setting them up in the loom

the other on that will fox most folk
on a mondeo 2.5 and the 2.0 st engine lives what is known as an IMRC
this translates to
INTAKE MANIFOLD RUNNER CONTROL
its a silver box with a cable coming from it and a 6 pin connector going to it
this is an ecu controlled little motor that pulls on a cable in the plenum and alters the position of the flaps

notes
the IAC =  IDLE AIR CONTROL
its an iac valve
post 2005 ish, all cars go fly by wire throttle pedal
or 'really' they go from PWM simple ecu's to CAN_BUS, where the car is a network of CAN - bussed items that ALL speak to each other, i.e. the gearbox speaks to the clocks, speak to the abs, speak to the vss, etc etc

so in reality IF the car - pre 2005 has a cable throttle, it WILL HAVE TO BE - NON can-bus
one to look for here is the 2.1 litre v6 jaguar x-type petrol engine, as it has an iac on the throttle body, cable throttle, BUT it runs on plug coils and utilises 'MUCH LIKE THE focus st170' variable valve timing
which BASICALLY is simplya switch valve that opens some oil pressure valve to a vernier style cam affair altering the cam position, its that simple.

so the crux of the argument is
can you run a pre vvt s type 3.0 engine on a stock ford v6 ECU

aftermarket ecu's are 900 pounds

could you run a 2.1 v6 petrol x type engine in a different vehicle with the stock ecu

should you be running the vapour purge to vent your tank
should you be running the 4 oxygen sensors so the engine can self tune 

something like that.

erm
yes so I have done the st170 swap with stock ecu.
looking at the colours of the wires and the positions at the ecu of the st170
its the same as the ford v6
the ford v6 has two extra oxygen sensors
two extra injectors

the imrc for example is the same part
the vapour can is the same part
the fuel rail pressure switch i be is the same part
the injectors are probanly the same part
etc etc

so IF you take into consideration a 4 pot is 2 litres and a 6 pot is 3
someting something

take note ALL the blocks are the same
the 2.5 mondeo and the 2.5 x and s type engines simply have cylinder liners pressed into the original 3 litre liners
and WOULD YOU BELEIVE the 2 litre x type engine has TWO sets of extra liners pressed in - you wouldn't beleive it would you!!!

also worth noting while I am on
the 2.5 and 3 litre heads differ - oil drain down in corners of 3.0 and not 2.5
the 3.0 s type jag 1999-2002 head is non vvt and funky buckets 
the x type later heads are vvt and differ from ford in port shape vvt and other things
i.e. the water pump drive cam on a ford comes all the way out the head - the jag is in two bits

its all about the stock ecu and the relative cheapness of the engines and the VARIETY
also worth pointing out all the engines are made in cleveland usa
the designations duratec v6 and AJ30 is a head scratch.
its basically from the iron blocked frog-eye scorpio v6 cosworth granada
upto the current v6 eco boost from about 2014 of the ford mustang and f100 and in the ford escape and explorer in front wheel drive config
so IF I must put it into perspective i will, a v6 cosworth iron block engine early or late is £1000
a eco boost v6 3.whatever that is not offered for sale in the uk is £5000
a mondeo , probe, maverick, mazda, st220, x type jag 2.1 2.5 3.0 s type 2.5 3.0 early late engines are 250
well i just bought one for sixty quid.

thanks




 

[pantswagen]

Hello pantswagen, where are you ?

I'm guessing you have spent a lot of time on the Samba researching all this, or works/worked for an installer who has been down this deep rabbit hole.

Whereas the OP is a very hands on practical guy taking what he has and making it fit without doing a ton of research into what has been done before, or buying parts off the shelf, which is a bit more typical of home-brew engine conversions here rather than the 'mericans style 9 a bit anal for our taste often) or a professional workshop installation designed to be repeated and provided to customers - inspirational rather than money making. I hope the OP doesn't mind me summarising it thus.

hello,
thanks for the reply
i am fitting an s type engine and rwd box into something.
I happen to have bought an s type engine still fitted to the front crossmember.
I have owned a t25
I have owned a rjes bell housing
an 094 gearbox

anyways, what i forgot is, 'yesterday' after reading this thread I thought I would overlay the s type rwd automatic flex plate onto the mondeo/x-type automatic engine and flex plate
note they are DIFFEWRENT
the jag i think has an extra tooth, -the tooth count differs
and the pitch of the teeth differs
and the plane or position from the block face is different.

or if you like, it may have made the installation of the ford/jag v6 block easier onto a different automastiche gearbox easier with a deeper flex plate
using the full circle if you like bell housing pattern of the s-type and iots sandwich plate - using the sandwich plate as a template for the adaptor.
then having an easier time of having the starter on the passenger side in the middle rather than on the top under the parcel shelf

using the s type sump in a t25 van is possible as the in its original fitment the front facing oil capacity appendage sits in front of the engine buy loads - in a 35-40 ford its where the front crossmember is.

in a mondeo or an x type, the sump nearest the front pulley of the engine has a recess - this isnt to clear anything, its where the exhaust comes across in a fwd configuration, so matters not really on a t25.
looking at the thread, and because i am probably the only person in the world that
1. happens to have an s type front crossmember
2. has swapped on both a mondeo sump and an x type sump onto an s type engine
3. owned a t25
4. has the two s type engine mountings
5. has removed the stock s type engine mounts from a 3.0 engine block
6 has a early and late s type engine and an x type enigine
I thought I would part my knowledge.

p.s. I havn't been on the samba since 'scene tax'

 

[pantswagen]

also worth noting
the st220 engine in a rwd configuration with the s type jaguar flywheel and clutch and the s type getrag 221 5 speed gearbox appears in the 2007 ish morgan as a factory production car
i dont think a morgan has tone rings or abs sensors in the hubs or anything like that.
lord knows how they manage to run the later v6 ecoboost from the mustang in the 2016 ish version
that is one to look to....................

the manual s type jaguar v6 is really a rare car now
its 24 years old.
the flywheels are unobtainium.
i desperately need one.





 

[pantswagen]

2004 Ford Mondeo ST220 Comments (r83235) (carsurvey.org)

because we love tech

here they discuss the 2.5 and early mondeo v6 intakes
the st200 and 2.5 mondeo uses a imrc box and cable to 
divert the flaps in the plenum for economy.

the st220 simply does not run imrc at all, its full chat

i think on the later sty;e x type 2 litre, the intakes have big plastic circles in them - two of that spin to divert the air
on intake runner length i know not why or how or what it dsoes

there are turny turny valves x2 on the s type later engine.

i bet the signal to the imrc cable box could be used to control the later engines turny turny plenum intake runner lenth control flaps

 

[pantswagen]

well, i am glad i typed it all out as it got me thinking
IMRC
intake manifold runner control
so the ecu can send out signals to change this, operate a motor to pull some flappage
in time with engine speed or demand
now here is the crux
I BET 
on a modern can bus engine with vvt
it both controls the plenum flaps AND the variable valve timing
so in effect the x type jag 2.1 ecu
is basically the left over 2.5 mondeo ecu's
the imrc output from the ecu
controls the flaps and the vvt
simple

if you like the st220 ecu has no imrc output as it has no plenum flaps and no vvt - 104 pin ecu

the x type has both flappage and vvt - 104 pin ecu - take a look on ebay you can tell they use a 104 pin ecu

the 2.5 mondeo has imrc and no vvt - 104 pin ecu

the later s type has vvt and flappage but can bus
different non 104 pin ecu - i have a loom plug here and it is different

 

[pantswagen]

scraTCH that
the 2.1 jag has the pats in the clocks
bugger

so its
if you do for example buy a complete 2.1 jag
and have the keys
what is the pats bit in the clocks and can you remove it and use it
withough having the complete clock bit

 

[pantswagen]

ooh,
the thing i forget
when using the stock ford ecu
you can connect it to forscan
do the diagnostics on the lap-top
which is nice

Mondeo ST24 fixing a faulty IMRC - YouTube
imrc repair
no wonder they did without it

 

[rollercoaster]

WOW
What a download of info,
thanks, no doubt good reference for future builds.

You sound interesting,
tell us where you are and more about yourself.