JX not turning over by hand...

[spanishfly]

Help stupid question alert..... just changing the cam belt on a JX, didn't really need doing as only 25,000 km on it but I wanted to do it right, been there 8 years! Rocker cover off, managed to get the pulleys off eventually, with some backwards and forwards on the crank nut to allow clearance to remove the pulley bolts did this without the cam lock in, Cam covers off, went to turn the engine over on the crank bolt to find TDC and seems to hit a hard stop in both directions and don't want to damage anything. It was perfect before I started so feeling a bit stupid. What could I have done wrong?
Any pearls welcome...! Cheers
 

[davidoft1]

Are you turning just the crank with the belt off?

[spanishfly]

Cam belt is still on didn't want to touch that until I have the locking bar in but can't get to TDC? The other two belts are off though.

[ELVIS]

I’m a tad confused here. 

Have you touched the cambelt at all? What pulleys have you taken off? Just water pump/alternator?

[spanishfly]

Yes I am too! Thanks for replying. 
I've only removed the 2 pulleys, crank and waterpump in order to remove the covers, not touched the belt at all so I don't see how I can have upset the timing?
The only other unusual thing was that I leant over the seat, not wanting to get dirt on it to put it into 2nd hoping to provide some resistance when trying to remove the 6mm allen bolts and ended up with it seeming to be stuck and having to  wrestle quite hard with the gear stick to return to neutral. Checked underneath at the selector and the gears seemed to select fine. Thinking about it if I jack it up to clear the wheel ramps I could turn the wheels to check it isn't somehow selector related. 
It's a little hard to see but there aren't any obvious holes some small item nut w h y could fall down are there? Work space is clean and tidy so I doubt it but also confused. 
 

[Cecil]

Can we assume that you don’t have a locking pin in the injection pump pulley ?

[Cecil]

Just read your recent post, does sound as if it is still in gear.

[spanishfly]

Thanks Cecil, no pins hadn't got to that bit and you're right my first thought was that it was still in gear. Same resistance and hard feel as when you try to push it by hand and haven't put it in neutral. 
So what did I do with my gear stick wrestling?  and is jacking it up and rocking the wheels the best route forwards? 
i love this forum....!

[Cecil]

Jack up just 1 rear wheel. Chock the  other 3 so you can take the handbrake off without the van rolling off the ramps .
lf it is properly out of gear then you should be able to freely rotate the jacked up wheel by hand .
don’t forget to put the handbrake back on  asap !

[Cecil]

As far as the gear linkage is concerned, maybe the adjustable joint in the middle has slipped  or the “cup”  at the rear may have broken  or the splines on the ball lever at the gearbox  slipped out of position .
With hindsight pressing the clutch may have helped get it out of gear .

[spanishfly]

Thanks, pressing the clutch did help, would have done that if I wasn't trying to keep the seat clean  , idiot!
All silky smooth at the cup end, I didn't check the joint in the middle and the spigot bearing will be original.... fingers crossed rotating a wheel will confirm it is in gear and or help it pop out...

[spanishfly]

Not in gear, all selection smooth I just don ‘t understand????

[spanishfly]

Watching the valves as I move the crank through the available 150 degrees of movement. Valve 8 is fully open at the hard stop one way and valves 3 and 5 arę Just opening at the other??? If valve 8 is open when valve 1 is closed does this mean that piston 4 is up when it should be down? Am I wrong in reasoning that somehow my attempts to get the pulley bolts out by using a spanner on the crank bolt for leverage in the mistaken belief the crank bolt was holding the pulley, I might have changed the relationship between the cam and the crank and thrown the timing out to the point that a piston is contacting the deck? If so there must be a way to find TDC without a belt? This tooth has paint on it, where should it be relative to TDC? I did notice the cam pulley bolt wasn't very tight not sure if that might be relevant? 

[Cecil]

Even if the cam sprocket has moved on it’s taper .I guess the injection pump locking pin holes coming into alignment should give a indication of when the engine is at tdc .If I recall correctly the pin goes in a slightly smaller hole of the  holes in the sprocket . I do recall that it is tricky to spot the timing marks through the inspection hole at the same time as turning the engine at the crank pulley bolt ,they seem to come, and go past quicker than you would think .  If the engine will rotate to tdc  the position of the slot in the end of the cam for the cam locking tool will give a clue as to if the cam timing has slipped.
I think it is possible ,with care ,to turn the engine without the cambelt fitted by gently  turning the cam pulley and crankshaft independently but stopping as soon as there is contact .
The crank timing sprocket has a form of key way so I would be surprised if that has slipped on the crankshaft plus I take it the bolt is tight given you have been able to turn the engine with it .

E D I T
      Tdc will occur twice (not on the same cylinders) in 1 rotation of the injector pump , the other will be when the locking pin holes are 180 degrees apart !
 

[spanishfly]

Thanks Cecil I think I must have jumped a couple of teeth undoing the pulley bolts, loosened the cam and used some trial and error now got it all synched back up ok so hopefully drama over.....