Syncro 4&4 Discussion and Q&A last answered over 2 years ago.
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BAYVELLE wrote:
Fairly sure it needs to be a Turbo engined car though Karl?
It is the Girling 60 twin pot calipers that are needed.
Correct if you want the twin pot calipers but getting new/re-conditioned calipers for this model isnt easy. Discs are easy enough though and will work with the A100 single pot calipers. It gives you more leverage and better cooling than standard.
The Sharan set up is probably better as parts are easier to get
lloydy wrote:The only negative for me is having to reduce the diameter of the disc and shave the calipers slightly. I'm not very knowledgable in this area so I'm sure this is not a issue to do.
Audi set up seems to be a good one, but for some (maybe nonsense) reason I really don't want to be redrilling calipers and spacing them off.
The black diamond set up seems to be the easiest at the moment, but does anyone have any opinions on drilled and grooved vs vented?
Reducing the diameter of the disc is a simple lathe job so that isnt an issue really as long as the disc is set up in the chuck properly. Is the offset of the Sharan disc suitable? The Audi vented one is 276x25 as opposed to 288x25 but I dont know if the offset is the same. I have some SA vented ones here as well. Shaving metal off a caliper sounds a little hairier. I dont know exactly what is involved cuz I haven't looked but is it a diameter thing or does it foul the wheel centre? Anyway on a 16" it shouldnt matter. Drilled and grooved discs wear out your pads quicker whereas vented discs keep them cooler. Vented is better for brake fade.
Re-drilling caliper hangers and fitting spacers is not ideal but it works. The ideal caliper will fit directly to the Syncro upright using the OE bolts and have the right offset for bolting on with no spacers. I looked at about a dozen different Mercedes/VW units but nothing fitted directly with the offset I wanted.
Dai wrote:A front brake upgrade is one of the next things I'm hoping to do to my van,I was intending to use the Sharan setup which I know will fit inside my Mach 5 wheels , but I'll watch this post with interest as it's always best to weigh up the options
The Audi setup I have fits inside an ET25 7x15 steel wheel with no issues but the SA kit I bought didnt I had to grind a little off so it wouldn't rub the wheel centre.
i guess its a case of wanting your cake and eating it, the metal off the caliper is 1mm taken off where the back of the pads sit if i understood correctly and its just so the thicker disc fits inbetween the pads. The discs are 288-25
here's some info
don't know the offset, but they are already fitted to a 16" with no issues. I have a lot of room inside the clk alloys for larger discs/calipers, but it might not be the same for the 16" steels.
there is a lot of info on the samba, but they seem to go to massive lengths to fit stuff on
Would be nice if we had some proper written down instructions on these different conversions so you can see whats really involved
My first impression from driving the Unicorn was how good the 16" brakes were compared to the 14's and I also seem to recall Russell and other knowledgeable people state that the stock brakes on 16's were more than up to the job so I am quite puzzled by this post in one way. The first thing I would do is give my brakes a thorough service esp. the back ones before going down the upgrade route. As I'm sure you know that if your rear drums aren't working well your fronts are going to be doing a lot of the work. Most of the upgrades mentioned are for 14's from what I can see which make sense for us 14/15 owners but I'm not sure if I'd be going that way on a 16 myself. I think in terms of simplicity I would make sure everything is working as it should and with its tolerances esp the discs and pads then go for the black diamond ones if needs be.
As you have the 16 inch rims, how about Ultimate Engineering's Porsche upgrade? Pricey. Did it on my Multivan along with a BMW servo, and truly been thrown in to the 21st century. Amazin'.
I really do have no issue with the general performance of the 16" brakes and i know they are miles better than a 14". I was just trying to see if there was a bolt on vented option, as the solid discs really overheated in switzerland, i know those type of roads i'll only be driving once a year, which is why i was trying to find a cheap bolt on option. If there isnt i'll get the b'diamond ones. I have new discs,pads flexis and shoes ect. for the rears i have one of those fitting kits (springs) to fit. Calipers could probably benefit from a refurb, but they do work fine.
I do know the difference between solid and vented/drilled and grooved in they way they behave when used hard is massive, so i was just seeing what is available
jebiga41 wrote:My first impression from driving the Unicorn was how good the 16" brakes were compared to the 14's and I also seem to recall Russell and other knowledgeable people state that the stock brakes on 16's were more than up to the job so I am quite puzzled by this post in one way. The first thing I would do is give my brakes a thorough service esp. the back ones before going down the upgrade route. As I'm sure you know that if your rear drums aren't working well your fronts are going to be doing a lot of the work. Most of the upgrades mentioned are for 14's from what I can see which make sense for us 14/15 owners but I'm not sure if I'd be going that way on a 16 myself. I think in terms of simplicity I would make sure everything is working as it should and with its tolerances esp the discs and pads then go for the black diamond ones if needs be.
mrmule wrote:As you have the 16 inch rims, how about Ultimate Engineering's Porsche upgrade? Pricey. Did it on my Multivan along with a BMW servo, and truly been thrown in to the 21st century. Amazin'.
i guess the acid test too a degree is can you or cant you lock up in the dry? if the answer is yes then @ least you have the ability to vastly reduce you stopping distance
ive never been able to lock up only any standard 16" set up on tarr
how ever with the sharan discs and bmw servo locking up is no problem,so as andrew said put sharan disc in laith remove 12mm of the diameter of disc wittle down to276mm ..and remove about 1mm each side of caliper or untill clearance is met and thats pretty much it..total cost circa 60 quidd for the discs and what ever for the machining
xriss wrote:i guess the acid test too a degree is can you or cant you lock up in the dry? if the answer is yes then @ least you have the ability to vastly reduce you stopping distance
ive never been able to lock up only any standard 16" set up on tarr
how ever with the sharan discs and bmw servo locking up is no problem,so as andrew said put sharan disc in laith remove 12mm of the diameter of disc wittle down to276mm ..and remove about 1mm each side of caliper or untill clearance is met and thats pretty much it..total cost circa 60 quidd for the discs and what ever for the machining
It does look a easy upgrade, some pics would be nice maybe pointing where you shaved the calipers
jebiga41 wrote:My first impression from driving the Unicorn was how good the 16" brakes were compared to the 14's and I also seem to recall Russell and other knowledgeable people state that the stock brakes on 16's were more than up to the job so I am quite puzzled by this post in one way. The first thing I would do is give my brakes a thorough service esp. the back ones before going down the upgrade route. As I'm sure you know that if your rear drums aren't working well your fronts are going to be doing a lot of the work. Most of the upgrades mentioned are for 14's from what I can see which make sense for us 14/15 owners but I'm not sure if I'd be going that way on a 16 myself. I think in terms of simplicity I would make sure everything is working as it should and with its tolerances esp the discs and pads then go for the black diamond ones if needs be.
Good point made here of course is dont modify until you have found out how good the standard system can be. I completely refurbed my brakes prior to Syncro25 and was surprised at the difference it made. However, brake fade was still an issue which is why I started collecting brake bits. I have a set of SA vented discs which are the same as Audi 200 discs. I now need to get a set of 4 pot calipers that fit as the SA calipers I have are single pot.
The suspension uprights are different on 14" and 16" vehicles and so are the discs - the 16" being similar to an SA disc in diameter but solid. The calipers, according to ETKA, are the same on 14" and 16" so this leads me to conclude that the 16" caliper is mounted further out, giving more leverage therefore better braking. This combined with bigger rear brakes would give the 16" Syncro much better brakes than its 14" cousin.
The disc isnt the issue, the caliper is.
I disagree with the statement that the 16" brakes are more than up to the job. They aren't. T3 brakes in general in todays world are rubbish and they were not great 20 years ago either as most of the components came off a T2.
had a thought, if a 16" brakes are from a LT, will a LT's discs fit on? they seem to do vented versions? Not sure if these are the correct ones, but i'm searching http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FRONT-Ferodo- ... 1325wt_932" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
they seem to be thinner than the other vented discs so might fit standard calipers?
xriss wrote:i guess the acid test too a degree is can you or cant you lock up in the dry? if the answer is yes then @ least you have the ability to vastly reduce you stopping distance
ive never been able to lock up only any standard 16" set up on tarr
how ever with the sharan discs and bmw servo locking up is no problem,so as andrew said put sharan disc in laith remove 12mm of the diameter of disc wittle down to276mm ..and remove about 1mm each side of caliper or untill clearance is met and thats pretty much it..total cost circa 60 quidd for the discs and what ever for the machining
It does look a easy upgrade, some pics would be nice maybe pointing where you shaved the calipers
ill try getting the wheel of tomorrow and gather some images for you,in the meantime here is some test footage "sharan set up" sporting bfg allterrains in both instances anchors were hauled on @ 33mph
I remember once when a few of us were away and we went down some really steep hills and with all the vans getting hot brakes there was a hell of smell being the van at the back. I remember Russel telling me that the best brake set up was vented front discs and 16" rear drums but saying that (apart from using up my front pads a bit quickish this year) standard brakes are fine on mine and I would like to think I have done my fair share of down hill driving over the last couple of years. When I want to stop the van stops and when I am going down steep mountain passes I keep in third etc. I drove from The Black Forest in Germany to home without any front brakes this year and just used the gearing and the odd bit of handbraking.
The only problem I have ever had with a Syncro is with the bits that were not suppose to be on it from the factory.
jed the spread wrote:
The only problem I have ever had with a Syncro is with the bits that were not suppose to be on it from the factory.
Jed
very true, and is the reason i'm looking for a bolt on disc that is vented.
Been having a look at the Vw part number for the 16" disc (251 407 615 R) Then found this site which list all the manufactures that sell that part under their own part number. http://www.partsbase.net/part/a.b-16280" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you click on each supplier it gives you the tech details on the disc, near the bottom of that list it lists brake disc type, most state 'full' which i presume means solid. BUT there is a few on there that state 'vented'!! so now i'm going to do a little digging on those...
these seem to be vented? and give two other options that seem to be vented..
Found using the vw part number, then the brembo part number http://www.italiaricambi.it/index.php/2 ... orter.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I had to grind a little off so it wouldn't rub the wheel centre.
maybe pointing where you shaved the calipers
