Diesel Gearbox Protection

[syncropaddy]

This for me personally could be the middle ground at least, at taking a whack and spreading a bit of the load and giving air flow. Now at least I understand how the fins work on the gear box moulding (thanks for your input it obviously makes sense this far down the thread) I would be interested in trying or at least looking at the SS part just through the connivance of buying off the shelf. Its a shame nobody in the UK can show one and how it works as in theory it does look quite effective, I for one would be willing to give it a go.

jed

Would it not be simpler to drop your rear sump guard and draw out a template on the area you want protecting and get it made locally. It does not have to be a fancy looking CNC bent, lazer cut job cuz no one will see it and anyway the first thing you will do with it is scratch it ....

[HarryMann]

Don't forget the fins are there not just for cooling, but probably for stiffening the casing just as much

Jed, having trouble with the old comprehension, sorry, not sure from that whether you're withers or aginster

Any chance you can reduce that last post to a couple of bullet points, maybe three at the most, ta !

[axeman]

droped my bash bars etc to do some work on the engine today, collected some mud etc from coney but i was pushing the van at some points over the weekend, i drove home and for the past week with this collected in between the gear box and the moded gear box protection with no real problems to report.
i have now installed my my moded sump and will be at some point closing off the rest of the bash bars under the entire engine sump (with more 3mm steel sheet) and adding to the existing bash bars to prevent any further possible contact (possible damage) with the ground.




any thing has got too be better than nothing ?

just a thought but dose any one know if the wbx design there was a inclushion for a degree of air cooling included, as the case has fins all over the bottom of it,hence the design of the petrol protection bars and the diesel bars being far more enclosed, and better protection of the engine.

neil

[HarryMann]

Don't forget the fins are there not just for cooling, but probably for stiffening the casing just as much

Applies to crankcase/sumps as well as gbox I'm sure. Many M-Cycle crankcases were finned for both reasons

and there is always an element of aircooling, whether it is allowed for though what matters is that the final system cools and heats acceptably in arctic, temperate and equatorial (even desert) conditions.

You'll all now have to repeat those tests VW did all those years ago, but I hear that despite being phenomenally expensive, they're always good fun (& well paid) for the test drivers

[PC52]

So, after all of that...
How are those that are going to use a protection plate to drive over the massive bolders going to protect the area in the red circle



That is where it all fixes to the body, this is the weak spot. The fixings on the body will bend causing the bash cradle to go up into the gearbox and propshaft.

This is the result after a bit of bolder playing.

[silverbullet]

So, after all of that...
How are those that are going to use a protection plate to drive over the massive bolders going to protect the area in the red circle

As I see it, the damage resulting from a direct hit to the front of the engine bars at the front mounting point will be the same whatever. A protection plate won't make any difference but will obviously stop the same rock penetrating between the rails and finding the gearbox nose, main casing and then the sump/crankcase. That's what I'm most worried about.
I would think that the front mounting bolts (in shear) will deform before the vertical angle struts on the body compress. The flat vertical ends of the rails will also buckle. There is however the chance that the rear cross-member will deform under large loads, as the struts will concentrate impact forces at those two points. I'd advise reinforcing the sides of both the rail mounting ends (to angle section, not flat) and the cross-member to help it resist going barrel-sided under impact.

[jed the spread]

As I see it, the damage resulting from a direct hit to the front of the engine bars at the front mounting point will be the same whatever. A protection plate won't make any difference but will obviously stop the same rock penetrating between the rails and finding the gearbox nose, main casing and then the sump/crankcase. That's what I'm most worried about.
I would think that the front mounting bolts (in shear) will deform before the vertical angle struts on the body compress. The flat vertical ends of the rails will also buckle. There is however the chance that the rear cross-member will deform under large loads, as the struts will concentrate impact forces at those two points. I'd advise reinforcing the sides of both the rail mounting ends (to angle section, not flat) and the cross-member to help it resist going barrel-sided under impact.

Oh really!! I think I follow what you are on about but if I have read it wrong....

What does actually happen when they have a really really good whack is the the mounts that Pete has kindly highlighted with a circle bend upwards towards the floor of the van pushing everything (inc any plates you might have wielded on) against the delicate bits you want protecting. Thus (I hate using that word as it usually leads to aload of drivel but....) bending the whole protection bar set up including the cross member bit that VW engineered to be bolted off when it rubs on the prop (a few of us have had this in years past). This area is the "strong" mounting point (actually weak point really) and if it takes a really good whack it knocks all the bits that should take in pact by bending (prop rails, cross members etc...) and pushes them out of position and make contact with engine, gear box, prop etc. Ask me how I know?

jed

[silverbullet]

Got any pics of the carnage Jed? Just for clarification and my much-needed syncro education
The cross-member I was referring to is the one in the bodyshell that it all bolts to and carries the rear swingarm mounts, not the little 3-hole strip of plasticine that bends the moment you look at it.

[jed the spread]

Let me get some picture from the doka, people always say pictures speak a thousand words...

jed

[syncropaddy]

So, after all of that...
How are those that are going to use a protection plate to drive over the massive bolders going to protect the area in the red circle

Exactly the same way that those that are not going to use a protection plate

[silverbullet]

Indeed Andrew. As before, in less words this time:
The brackets circled will bend first, so they need changing to "L" or "[" section to make them much stiffer. Then reinforce the box cross-member on the bodyshell so they don't squash or punch through it. Replace fixing bolts after every big hitting session as they will be "S" shaped.

[jed the spread]

Sooooo, at the Shipston weekend I noticed a clanging under the van. The bolt on cross member between the rails had bent and was rubbing on the prop, I remember thinking it didnt take that much of a whack It is obviously straight and set lower now but anyway this is for Ian.





It was rubbing because in the past, and before me or I bet Stan I bet had owned the van it had taken an almighty whack underneath. You cant really see it now because of my bulked up prop rails (bolt on/off), but the fixing for the linkage protection tubing was mounted lower down when the rails set higher. You could see where it had taken the whack in the area that you where talking about....





Infact they were so high that the rear engine protection was sat up against the gear box and if a plate had been wielded on that would have pushed the gear box right up and I wouldnt have been able to see it

So the mounting point that is fixed to the chassis on one of the rais has been pushed up due to the whack and I had to make an extra bit so It could be fixed into the correct position,



So the part that will actually give is that part and thats why the rails and guards give to protect that part ultimately I guess. That why I thought it would have been a good Idea to take a product you were making to the last Syncro do. Its all very well and good making/replicating stuff but ultimately if you were ever to come up with your own unique idea with only one days mild green laning under your belt a week ago you will be lucky if it is successful to a paying customer with out any input from them. Look at those CV guards, Futbus is still selling his original product as a tried and tested product due to his experience without faults unlike the ones that were sold by someone else with defective rubber. I am really keen on getting something gear box protection related fitted to mine though I am far from being an expert but hope my small bit of advice might help in your development of specialized products of these specialized vehicles you sell.

Hope this helps, confirms, indeed goes the other way on how you are thinking of pushing forward with these.

jed

[silverbullet]

You lost me at the start but I think I caught up by the end...I see what you mean by the damage done in the last picture. That must have been a pretty big hit. Reinforcement and welding needed there, like I said.
Who told you about "that" unique product? I ran out of time before Coney Farm but the prototype will finally be getting made this week, then evaluated behind closed doors by our tame recognised specialist....
More later.

And don't you dare be so f'ing patronizing.

[HarryMann]

Replace fixing bolts after every big hitting session as they will be "S" shaped.

Maybe, but never (in ?? years SN eventing!) bent one yet

Jed, Wow, that must have been an almighty thwack to do that..

============

Putting a very simple 1/4" dural plate on mine Jed, front part only just to cover the 'G' /'R' housing protrusion. If you want one I'll make a 2nd for you, just requires tapping into the box under-run frame 6 x M6 threaded holes. Photo if you want?

[Bullifamilie]

so I took my protection bars off yesterday, ready for a gearbox and diff swap, but also to straighten and add some more protection.

Can someone confirm the Prop rails (bolt on/off) protection should be straight, I'm sure they should be but mine are bent in perfect symetry I started to wonder.