TDI AND FLIPPED BOX IN A CALIFORNIA

[chrisbeck]

Hi
I have the chance of buying a TDI A4 avant from a mate, the car is known to me and runs really well.
The question is what are peoples views on going down the flipped box route. I have a couple of mates who have had the conversion done, but the biggest complaint has been the gear change.
I was wondering if it would just be best to get my 3H five speed re geared by Mr Talbot, and stick with the standard gear pattern.
my van is currently running a strong AAZ with boost pin and external oil cooler.
All opinions are welcome.
Thanks
Chris

[chrisbeck]

Nobody then

[davegsm82]

I'm about to put one in my Devon, but probably not for a month or so. Will initially have wierd gears until I can sort out a 'translator'.

Have the engine running etc, just waiting for the adapter plate.

If the A4 you're looking at is a PD engine then I would forget it unless you want to pay lots as the PD's don't have the correct engine mounting points. I'm going with an AFN.

Dave.

[chrisbeck]

Not a pd, it's an AFN, just not to sure about what gearbox route to take.
I will not be able to afford to do the conversion this year as i am getting married, but want to get the car and take all what I need off, then strip and freshen the engine up with a rebuild before i fit it.
We go to europe in ours every year and it has been faultless, but the AAZ does rev a bit and is relatively juicy. Just want a bit more grunt and better economy really.

[discipleofsketch]

There seems to be a real split between those who advocate the flipped box vs a rebuilt T3 box. Every time this discussion pops up on the T3 tdi facebook group, the same arguments pop up with people preferring one or the other:-

Flipped Box (for):-
- nice low revving cruising ratios
- newer, maybe lower mileage gearbox comes "free" from a donor car

Flipped box (against):-
- Complexity of the custom gear shift to get gears in the correct pattern
- Vagueness of shifting in some cases
- Gear ratios from the donor car won't necessarily translate to a 2.5 tonne brick shaped camper van, might end up over-geared and prematurely wearing out clutches.
- Creates a "white elephant" that will scare off the less-brave mechanics
- Position of the engine needs to be changed to avoid driveshaft angles being too steep - often meaning that the engine hangs low.

Re-geared T3 box (for):-
- Keeps it "factory", including the shifter and linkage
- with a rebuilt gearbox you'll know what condition everything is in

Re-geared T3 box (against):-
- Cost
- The gearing might still feel a little low for motorway cruising with a Tdi (some people apparently like it to be barely above tick-over at 80mph )

Hope that helps - for what it's worth, personally i'm saving for an Aiden rebuilt T3 box.

[chrisbeck]

Must admit, I am thinking the same, I did drive my mate Andy's California with the flipped box and quite liked it, but he did have problems, and it was a pro install.
I am thinking rebuilt box would keep a bit of origionality. All I really want is to be able to criuse at about 80mph when in europe, at sensible revs.
I did the last conversion myself and am really happy with the improvement in torque and bhp, its just the revs, even though It's running 17" wheels with 225 50 profile tyres.
I have got a slightly taller gearbox at home which I am going to fit before we go to Italy this year, but still fancy the TDI.

[discipleofsketch]

Must admit, I am thinking the same, I did drive my mate Andy's California with the flipped box and quite liked it, but he did have problems, and it was a pro install.
I am thinking rebuilt box would keep a bit of origionality. All I really want is to be able to criuse at about 80mph when in europe, at sensible revs.
I did the last conversion myself and am really happy with the improvement in torque and bhp, its just the revs, even though It's running 17" wheels with 225 50 profile tyres.
I have got a slightly taller gearbox at home which I am going to fit before we go to Italy this year, but still fancy the TDI.

I wouldn't dare drive mine at 80mph, not with the current brakes, suspension and vague steering! Sensible revs at 70mph would be welcome though

[chrisbeck]

Agree with you on that, I have been through everything on mine, eibach springs, bilstein shocks poly bushed bottom arms, poly bushed rack, new ball joints and rack ends, and it makes a massive difference. It was like wrestling a fat bird when I got it

[Kent Joker]

As mentioned this is a topic with very different views, For me there doesn't seem much point investing in a modern Tdi in your bus with ANY gearbox that dosent make the best of the mpg and torque that VW spent millions on developing at such low revs,
if you want to cruise at 80 mph in a moden tdi you need your revs to be not much more than 3000rpm ish and as far as I can see the original box is always going to be a struggle even with an expensive rebuild and please tell me if I'm way off but as far as I know this is £2.5k ish, to be fair nobody is going to be able to tell you that there standard t3 gear shift is exactly a peace of precision shifting.

[Smcknighty]

I'll buy your aaz?

[davegsm82]

Personally, my preference is to go with the Flipped box, even though I'm a little unsure about the seemingly shocking CV angles.

From what I've read (lots of info, not all of it good) the original 3H box isn't really up to handling the torque that the AFN doles out, so that would put me off straight away. I would rather replace some cheap CV's every so often than have to drop the box out somewhere in the middle of Europe because something has gone amiss inside.

If you have the chance of a cheap car with the right engine and box then absolutely go for it, if it sits under a tarp for a year then who cares. If you're going down this route then I'd advise you to take the following from the car;
Engine + Box complete (duh)
Intercooler and all pipework
ECU, Clocks and Immo box if present,
Keys
Wiring loom, everything complete, from engine bay to anything which goes past the driver and passenger seats where it can simply be cut.

I did this with a Sharan and although it took a lot of head scratching it wasn't too hard to work out the wiring and get the engine running on the ground.

My Gearbox has been disassembled, ready for a local company to shave 15mm off the front face. For now I'm going to put up with the odd gear arrangement, if I remember right, direct connection to the box gives;

R 4 2
I--I--I
5 3 1

I'm working on an Idea which will just flip the Left-to-right, so it would end up as;

2 4 R
I--I--I
1 3 5

I lot more acceptable I think.

In short, go for it and good luck with the marriage, I got married just over a year ago so I know how expensive it can be!

Dave.

[discipleofsketch]

As mentioned this is a topic with very different views, For me there doesn't seem much point investing in a modern Tdi in your bus with ANY gearbox that dosent make the best of the mpg and torque that VW spent millions on developing at such low revs,
if you want to cruise at 80 mph in a moden tdi you need your revs to be not much more than 3000rpm ish and as far as I can see the original box is always going to be a struggle even with an expensive rebuild and please tell me if I'm way off but as far as I know this is £2.5k ish, to be fair nobody is going to be able to tell you that there standard t3 gear shift is exactly a peace of precision shifting.

We are at different ends of the tdi T3 spectrum though - yours is an awe-inspiring magazine-worthy high-performance build that rivals a modern van performance wise, I just needed an engine that didn't burn oil and would drag my heavy family camper up hills. The cost of a 1z plus install was nowhere near the prices i've seen bandied around on forums - only slightly more than having my oil-burning and only-just powerful enough 1Y rebuilt. I "cruise" at 65mph on a standard petrol T3 box and I need the stereo up loud to compensate. Drives lovely on A roads, I spend most of my time in 5th (4th) gear, it's like having an automatic!

A rebuilt box cost will depend on how much of the internals are changed - someone I spoke to was quoted £1.2k by cogbox, but there's rebuilds and there's rebuilds....

[Kent Joker]

Thanks now I'm embarrassed I realise I'm very lucky to have a bus like mine, all I was trying to point out was its not as easy as it seems to successfully Tdi your bus, and if you already have a reliable motor, that's buy no means a bad thing, taking in to account the brakes suspention and overal cost of a tdi, there are plenty of pitfalls and getting wrong is much easer than people think.
I didn't mention in my earlier post but I'm a fan of the box flip based on my experance and the 12000 plus miles I've done in mine it's not so much as crunched a gear. Well apart from a set of new CV joints and a DMF clutch failure, but considering the extra weight and extra power I can live with that, and a new Passat box is £100 delivered.

[davegsm82]

I didn't mention earlier post but I'm a fan of the box flip based on my experance and the 12000 plus miles I've done in mine it's not so much as crunched a gear.

that's reassuring to know, since that's what I'll have soon.

[Aidan]

I didn't mention earlier post but I'm a fan of the box flip based on my experance and the 12000 plus miles I've done in mine it's not so much as crunched a gear.

that's reassuring to know, since that's what I'll have soon.

only if you spend what Keith did on the linkage work I think

On a 5 speed rebuild I gear your standard 1Z/AHU to 3150rpm at a true 70mph give or take 150 rpm depending on weight and volume, seems to work well, can go lower rpm but remember the ecu controlling the pump unless reprogrammed thinks it's dragging a car around not a van so it will always be slightly compromised and figure on from £2k especially if the old box is tired as many are especially the diesels'

In a perfect world VW would have a replacement gearbox of 6 speeds available complete with a replacement euro6 emmisions compliant fuel efficient engine package as an option for owners of T3s, with a 4 cylinder porsche engine based package for the petrol boys and girls, instead they build T5s and we each have to come up with the best compromise package we can afford instead for our T3s