New liner O rings installation in waterboxer engine

[Verlog]

Hi, i am doing a top end rebuild on a 1.9Dg and just the put liners and pistons back on one side.
My question is: should i have put some sealant on the base O rings.Its just that i was reading another thread on here and it was mentioned.No mention to do it by Mr Haynes.
And also should i be putting some around the top(green) seals as well.I think that there was sealant on them when i removed the old ones.
I do know a fair bit about O rings and how they work as i work in engineering,but i am no master mechanic,or VW expert,i dont want to mess this job up,even if it does mean i have to slide them off and put them back again.
I can say that the grooves themselves were in good condition,no pitting,and the mating faces on crankcase looked good and smooth too.this to me would suggest that they should be fine.
My engine is,i think a recon,of unknown origin and mileage,so i also wondered if VW originally sealed them too and for what reason.

Also,Thanks a million for your invaluable help,all the info i got from other threads on my cooling woes,saved my engine so far and now i understand why most people are better off just getting a recon lump and putting it in,i have some skills and can make special tools etc and i recon its a pretty fiddly job.Luckily i had no broken studs or other major woes,so far.I got in there early enough i think.When i bought the van a couple of years ago the guy had been putting mostly water in it,but not for too long, and i then spent a while messing around sorting a few of the cooling issues.His previous engine had done the exploding coolant tank trick.

I still haven`t sorted out the temp gauge which turned out to be doing exactly what the fuel tank gauge does,what a laugh that was.

Decided to get the heads off and have a look after having some more cooling issues,see what was going on in there,and will be giving it a new radiator,waterpump and thermostat.Hope to have a reliable van on the road again soon.

Cheers

[PetenAli]

I am very new to WBXs and just starting on a rebuild myself so very interested in this sort of question. Had lots of useful advice already from people on here.

I think this link to the Ben's Place website should give you the answer you need... http://www.benplace.com/head.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Good luck with it and let us know how it goes

[ghost123uk]

No sealant on the O rings.

But note 2 "special" sealants ARE to be used, one on the big rubber head to case gasket and another type on the head studs (under the washers). I got both types off Brickwerks (well actually they came with the gasket set). I was told NOT to use ordinary silicone rtv type stuff (for some reason, unknown to me).

I have my fingers crossed for you that when all is done it runs fine

Remember if you have had oil in the water system it can take MANY MANY flushes to clear it out. When I first did mine I thought it was still mixing oil & water until I had flushed it over a dozen times and it started to clear. For this reason I did not put anti freeze in for the first few weeks (luckily it was not freezing weather at the time). During that period I got very proficient at re-filling and bleeding it !

[croc]

Hi Verlog

I have done a similar rebuld about 18 months ago and it has been successful.
These are some of the things I did and also a trap to avoid. I am also fairly experienced in general engineering and 'conventional' engine maintenance.

1. O'rings - I only smeared some grease on both top and bottom o'rings and also in the block and head recess to help assembly - usual engineering practice.
I also only used a smear of grease on the metal ring headgaskets proper and on all other threads BTW.


2. As ghost says, It is important to use special sealant on the rubber waterjacket seal. There is no locating recess on the head and silicone does not adhere well enough on the flat surface. This face should be oil-free on assembly.
The coolant pressure can split the rubber aand force the rubber gasket out of the joint. (I had to remove my engine again and re-do both heads due to this - with another gasket set ££ !! - be warned)
The sealant on the old gasket was yellow and the new set also had a yellow tube and another sealant for elsewhere.

Also these engines cannot have the heads 'skimmed' as on a normal head with flat mating face due to the liner recesses.

Good luck, like to know how successful and any more tips for others.

jon

[Ian Hulley]

No sealant on the O rings.

If you'd seen inside a VEGE engine you'd know why Long strands of transient silicone wandering the cooling system like blue spaghetti blocking pipes and small hoses

Ian

[ghost123uk]

No sealant on the O rings.

If you'd seen inside a VEGE engine you'd know why Long strands of transient silicone wandering the cooling system like blue spaghetti blocking pipes and small hoses

Ian

Aye, I had this done to me, twice actually.

One was a good few years ago on a Vauxhall VX4/90 engine, the re-con garage (in Chester) used RTV in lots of places they shouldn't and it ruined the engine I had a hell of a job arguing the toss with them over a replacement.

More recently (5 years ago) a similar situation with a WBX engine I had "done" for me

Both times the excess RTV got into oilways.

Lesson = use any sealant VERY sparingly

[Verlog]

Thanks for your various advice.
That is good news,so i don`t have to take those liners out again.
Yes i have got the gasket set from brickwerks with the sealant for the big seal and head nuts,though didn`t know there are two different types,
and have not looked yet,these are all useful tips.
Petenali- good luck with yours,i think that the gudgeon pin is one thing that could cause problems,getting them out and putting them in.
Haynes manual says you can use a bit of stout bent wire,i would like to see that done,i made a tool to go up the inside with a plug on the end and a thread in the other end for a slide hammer,and they needed a bit of force to come out.Could be done a lot simpler with nuts and studding and a lump of steel with a hole in it as i saw on another thread yesterday,sorry cant remember where and not very computer literate for creating links etc,but ghost might point you to useful places if you haven`t seen them already.
Ghost- thankfully i haven`t suffered a major problem and had water in the sump or any of the other horrors i have read about,and there is not too much corrosion in the motor from having had water in it for a while.I pulled out the motor for a strip down because i have had the van overheating to an unknown degree on several occasions(as i said,the temp gauge does the same as the fuel gauge),i drove it up porlock hill on a warm bank holiday when i first had it,then continued another forty miles or so,then slowed down in town and had a horrible metalic clanging,which i thought might be terminal,now i know it was the hydraulic tappets with the oil too hot and thin to work properly.To my continuing amazement,it cooled down, the tappets pumped back up,or whatever it is they do,and i carried on my way and got home ok,then worked out the fan switch wasn`t working.It was a steep learning curve on the cooling system that first year.
End of last year,it started running the fan for over an hour after i stopped it so something wrong again,maybe just the thermostat.so this is why i am making sure the seals are ok in the engine,as well as going through the cooling system,new rad,pump etc.I had also previously put some of the wynns sealant that some people on here say is ok.Want to start again with it all as it should be,if that is possible.
Ok,waffle over,now i am posting, if i can help anyone else i will try.
One thing i am going to do which may intersest those with faulty/broken temp gauges.Bypass it altogether and put a thermocouple or two in the right places and have a digital reader on the dash,tell me how warm it is,shouldn`t be too expensive,made with stuff from radio spares or the like.
we use these things where i work so will get the right stuff for the job and then see how easy it is for anyone to do and post the info and some pics if it is successful .
Cheers for now

[Verlog]

I was wondering how much sealant ,and i suppose i will have trust my judgement on that one,its not always easy to get an even bead is it ?
I heed the warning though,thanks

[PetenAli]

No sealant on the O rings.

If you'd seen inside a VEGE engine you'd know why Long strands of transient silicone wandering the cooling system like blue spaghetti blocking pipes and small hoses

Ian

That's exactly why I am doing my own and getting all the info that I can off here and elsewhere. Just heard so many horror stories about Vege, Remtec etc. I reckon that if I work methodically, take my time, treble check everything then, although it might even end up costing me more, I should have an engine that will last me. This is particularly important because our Syncro is a keeper.

Verlog - thanks for the good wishes. Gudgeon pins are next as I have just finally got the liners unstuck from the heads without doing any damage - they seem good as all four have even cross hatching all way round so hopefully the pistons will be good as well. I'm going to make a gudgeon pin removal tool as suggested by MM289 using M12 allthread. Will post when its done!

[Ray]

Just got my 2.1 back from the garage after top overhaul. I had pressurised coolant and he found a kink in one cylinder lower sealing ring. Only done 12k on a vw supplied recon 8 years ago. As said above no sealant put on o rings, only special on rubber head gasket and head nuts. I am still paranoid about the coolant level now and am checking the top up bottle level every day. Hoping everything will be normal from now on! Just passed MOT too so looking ahead with hope!

[mm289]

FYI, typically you get a small tube of yellow sealant and a larger tube of black/grey (Reinzosil or equivalent).

The yellow is for the head nuts.

The black stuff is for everywhere else (water jacket seals, if you split the case etc).

You don't need a massive amount on the water jackets, but you do need it on both sides. I put a small bead in the "u channel", fit that then spread a thin bead on the flat surface before fitting together.

Cheers,

MM

[ghost123uk]

am checking the top up bottle level every day.

Not a bad habit at all (and check the oil weekly whilst your there)

Aside = I wonder, because of the semi hidden nature of the hydraulic fluid reservoir, under the instrument binnacle, how many of us regularly check that ? ( Note to self = check it every so often !!)

[Verlog]

Oh dear,bad news,it looks like i am not getting away with just a top end rebuild.
Shone a torch up the tappet holes for a look at the camshaft and didn`t like what i saw,pitting and uneven wear marks.
Also two of the hydraulic tappets had circlips bent and out of place,dunno why it didnt affect the pushrod ends,they look ok.Also the base of the tapppets where contacting cam lobes worn and a slight burr and brown deposit round the base.Maybe that is normal,i did read earlier the link from the Wiki all about tappets and cleaning gunk off them etc.I can replace the worn tappets.
So now i am wondering,if i split the engine to do the camshaft and whatever else i might find,should i now start going to VW commercial for these parts? I have looked around at a few of the usual places,the only camshaft i saw was a regrind from VW heritage,reasonable price,but do you think i should be getting a new one.
I do know that you have to have the right code no.,to get the right tolerance on the gears.
Anyhow,any feed back and things to beware of much appreciated.
Cheers

[ghost123uk]

I bet you have read on previous threads summat I often say to folks who are contemplating a DIY strip down and re-build.

It is often so full of pitfalls and unforeseen problems (as you have discovered) and the danger of it not being "right" in the end is ever present (and very annoying, I know ) that a £1000 re-con fitted free and guaranteed for 2 years starts to look like a more attractive proposition.

[ghost123uk]

I bet you have read on previous threads summat I often say to folks who are contemplating a DIY strip down and re-build.

It is often so full of pitfalls and unforeseen problems (as you have discovered) and the danger of it not being "right" in the end is ever present (and very annoying, I know ) that a £1000 re-con fitted free and guaranteed for 2 years starts to look like a more attractive proposition.