How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

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Justavan
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How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by Justavan »

Batteries are Flat.

And before you all make various suggestions as to what there is wrong with this and that..................Then there is NOWT.
New Twin Batteries new cable connections, Alternator, Earth Straps, Auxillary Fuse box to which ALL accessories are wired and nowt taken off the original fuse box.
All switches, fuses, light bulbs and bulb holders and fans and anything you care mention connected to the wiring loom has been checked.
The entire wiring loom has had a good going over and there is nowt to be seen or tested to be at fault.
There is no burnt or cross wires no bad earths or any foosti connections the whole system has had a proper going over
and yet once in a while you come out to yyyiiiiiihhhhjjjjiiihh
FLAT.
My Doka can lie unused for months and start first hit and then the once in a Bjue Moon flat batteries.
The only thing that has not been overhauled is the starter motor internals. For two reasons it is nearly new and is a bitch to change.
But I know from many years of experience it works good and the only thing I can now think of is that it Sludged inside and that may be causing a power leak to earth.
I know of a number of owners that have the same problem and have just ended up fitting a Cut Off switch to the battery.........BUT
I have even went to the extent of fitting a Battery Brian which has worked well all year and yet it has still got the GREMLIN.
And yes I have replaced the battery brain control unit which I still have good faith with as it has proved its worth many times over and alas I still have the GREMLIN.
So come on how many have the same issue with the battery and WHO has beaten this Gremlin for good as I have had from over a year to the next day or a week to have the Gremlin come on board once again...........

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Re: How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by jed the spread »

Do you really want me to say change the starter motor



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Last edited by jed the spread on 20 Dec 2010, 18:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by toomanytoys »

Only thing to do is to see if there is any leakage every time you park it up.. or fit the battery isolator...

Never experienced an intermitant battery...

My starter was well sludged up.. didnt cause leakage, but kept running after starting a lot...

Yes its a "bottom" to do on a petrol...

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Re: How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by jed the spread »

I dont know if this will be much help but I have just resolved a similar issue today but on a Diesel.

Basically it seemed the battery wouldnt crank over the engine properly when it was cold, when it was warm fine... Anyway first thought was battery, changed that, and then changed it again to a super dooper Bosch one. Next cold morning wouldnt crank over for a while then it would eventually, it was like it was spinning but not engaging onto the fly wheel. The amps looked to be down on the VDO gauge too.

I have changed a starter on a petrol a couple of times and knew it was a right job to do and takes ages, really didnt fancy doing it in the snow on my diesel van on the floor. Then I had a look in the engine bay and thought bugger me!!!! loads of room and swapped it over in 40 minutes (another reason not to buy a petrol). I cranked it over with a new starter and the difference is staggering the old one must have been absolutely shagged its like a new van It always was abit rubbish at starting and now I know why, funny what you get used to and think is normal. I had convinced myself it was an electrical problem for ages but was wrong.

Cant wait to see what it is like in the morning.

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Syncro G
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Re: How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by Syncro G »

My battery started going flat when the weather got to near freezing - was fine after a long run but if it had not been running long it wouldn't be able to restart. Then I went down south to help a mate move house it it wouldn't coldstart when I went to load up. Battery was at least 3 years old though so I replaced it (I was already fed up of jumping it that week and as diesels have the battery in the engine bay you don't want a loaded diesel van needing a jumpstart!) - The cranking speed has encreased significantly in all conditions so I think it was due!

A mate of mine has a Lada Niva, It has a rather comprehensive instruction manual (they don't expect you to call the AA in Russia so the handbook tells you how to fix practically anything, with the large toolkit surplied as standard (Even better than the 1950's handbook for my Land-Rover, though both treet decoaking the cylinder head and using fuel below 80 octane as standard operator procedures)) that recomends when cold starting (which in Russian speak seems to mean below about -20ºC) you should put the headlamps on for at least 1min prior to a starting attempt. It sounds like the wrong thing to do but a moderate load warms the battery up so it is able to produce significant current - Batterys don't actully go flat in the cold, the chemical reaction is just too slow to do much giving the apearance of flatness - warm them up and a decent charged battery will return to expected performance, though if you try to draw big currents from a very cold battery it will go flat quickly and deep discharge is never good, especally when cold. Heat is what actully shortens battery life. There is ofcourse no mention of using mains powered block heaters the Scandanavians are so fond of, though I suspect lighting a fire under the sump is not uncommon.

How cold it has to be before the headlamp trick works I don't know, my syncro (with a decent battery) coffs a little at -10ºC but is genrally happy, my 1.9D golf starts on the first compression if the coldstart is out, so I guess it has to be colder than that to be needed! The roughest thing I've herd start recently was my brothers 06 plate 2.0TDI PD 170 Leon, though I don't think he let the heaterplugs run as "the light only ever flashes for a second." If he bothered to look at it I think he'd have found that it stays on a few seconds at -10ºC.

An unrelated flat battery gramlin I had when I got the van was caused by someone conecting the aux water pump/turbo blower plug to a coolent temp sender rather than the proper switch - means it always leaks a bit of power perticularly as the engine cools - quite hard to detect and with a good battery in summer it can take over a month to flatten it but that might just make the difference with a weeker battery in winter.
Glen Syncronaut: 113 - 1992 JX Syncro pannel van

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Re: How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by silverbullet »

The syncro has struggled a bit in the low temps the last few days but thankfully the DG doesn't need much of a crank to fire up. I suspect the battery is on the way out (it's undersize anyway) plus factor in a bad gearbox earth strap into the equation.
The SA always spins over and starts easily so must have a healthier battery.
Good tip from Glen about using the headlamp load to bring up the battery temperature and up the volts
Jed: Next year the ADY should make for syncro joy with ease of access to all ancilliaries
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..lee..
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Re: How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by ..lee.. »

you may think this is stupid but i cant really think of anything else.

some cheap alarm systems work off a voltage drop . if you fitted one like this it would sound the alarm when the short occured. "hopefully"

this may mean you have to get up at 3 o clock in the morning to run some tests but a least you`d have the fault present whilst you test.

i`d favour alternator over starter but you`ve changed that. could it be faulty? was the same fault there before you changed the alternator?

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elsid
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Re: How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by elsid »

I have the same problem with my 1985 DG, the battery went flat overnight. I charged it up and noticed when I was replacing the earth strap I got a spark. I put a meter between the battery and earth strap and got a reading around 18amps! I connected a 21 watt bulb from battery to earth and it lit up very bright. I checked that nothing was switched on to cause a flow of current. I checked it a few times and found it doesn't do it all the time. I disconnect the earth strap every time I switch the motor off now. I am going to fit one of those switches to the earth strap.
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..lee..
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Re: How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by ..lee.. »

18amps is a massive drain. max should be 0.3 amps

Justavan
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Re: How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by Justavan »

Thanks for the input so far guys.......

Jed...........NO....

A Battery Brain is a battery isolator and a very good one and I would still recommend them in spite of this problem.
I have them fitted to all my other Vans and you can leave all your lights, heaters, radio etc on by accident and your motor will start when you come back to it as that safe guard is what it is designed for.
Cold batteries...... Nope I have 2 in line giving me 90 amps for start up no matter how cold it gets.
When you burn sheets of newspaper under the engine block to thaw out your engine oil you can talk to me about stating engines in cold weather
No like I've said i have done all the obvious Flat Battery checks.
I do have some different mods from the norm but they are all run through there own fuse box with a independent live feed from the batteries.
I can run main beam headlights with 2 x 100 wat spot lights window wipers all 3 fan heaters ( yes 3 ) C D player the lot for as long as I like while driving and not drop on battery power to restart afterwards.
The head lights and spots are run through relays and would melt the paint of the car in front.
Nope the only consolation I have is I know there is quite a few competent Syncro owners who have also come across this problem after going through everything and given up and just fitted a battery cut off switch ...........but that is not for me as I will not be beaten by some unseen GREMLIN...........

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Re: How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by ghost123uk »

I know it's not your issue cause you changed the alternator, but may I post this here as it might help someone in the future.

I had this a few years ago.
Once in a blue moon the battery would go flat for no apparent reason.
Discovered on checking with an amp meter, whilst turning the motor over with a spanner, (Note with ignition coil disconnected !!) there was one place where all of a sudden there was around a 20 amp draw.

Turned out I had an alternator that must have had a shorted winding or more likely a shorted diode in it. (often caused by arc welding by the way = disconnect alternator, radio, batteries etc before arc welding)

Replaced alternator with a second hand one I had laying around, checked again with amp meter = problem gone.
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Re: How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by syncroand101 »

ghost123uk wrote:
Turned out I had an alternator that must have had a shorted winding or more likely a shorted diode in it.

I had this exact problem a few weeks ago, came to the van and both the starter and leisure were empty, the alternator had a short, which made the split charge relay think there was a charge so it draining both batteries with a 16+ amp draw!

New alternator and all was fine.

Have you tested what the current draw is?

I also fitted an extra earth strap on the front of the gearbox, one either side now, as had a problem with a bad earth strap making the starter not work before, my diesel has been starting on the button after only a few seconds of glowplugs.

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Re: How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by ..lee.. »

he recons its 18amps which is why i still think it is the alternator.

Justavan
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Re: How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by Justavan »

Ghost123uk,

You may have hit this problem on the nail.

My Doka has had a little bit of welding work back and forward and not all of it done by me as I know about disconnecting battery leads before striking up a ark.

When I measured the alternator output last I focused on the 13.8 volts output and did not think on the polarities of the Diod Pack or the windings inside so that will be getting checked or replaced as soon as it is not MINUS BLOODY 12 outside. Talk about Brass monkeys this morning the Propex heater was coughing its guts up trying to get started to defrost the cab.

Thanks to you all for your thoughts and advice on this problem and I'll let you know when I catch the bloody Gremlin and kick its ass out of my Doka.............

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elsid
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Re: How many of you get the flat battery gremlin?

Post by elsid »

How can the battery drain through a dodgy alternator unless the solenoid is engaged. I left the battery connected for a week and it started OK yesterday so it is an intermitent fault. The starter has always appeared a little sluggish but it always starts the thing even in the freezing cold weather we are having at the moment.
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