I wonder.. Hybrid petrol(lrp) - electric

[MrBeard]

so I have searched around the forum a bit but couldn't see if anyone had done this yet.
It seems to me with the way electric cars and motors are progressing that this is THE best way to get improved fuel economy.

Whilst I know that essentially it is a big electric motor and lots of batteries, does anyone know how to get the transmission set up for the T25 to share the load or switch and recharge etc?

can anyone suggest a transmission system or electric motor that m ay be suitable?

I really think this could be a major step for the old campervan. and a step beyond LRP for fuel cost savings.

cheers
MrBeard

[toomanytoys]

The weight of lead acid batteries would deminish the mpg gain..

Try and buy enough NiCd or LiPo batteries to make it work well enough and youll need a second mortgage..
Then look at the regenerative control unit and power controllers..

Mecanically
Use a syncro front diff with a motor on it... (with all the suspension etc components), or a syncro gearbox with the motor on the front output..

An all electric vehicle makes sense if its used in town and no need to go too far..


Hybrid is pretty inaffective.. at some point the battery will be flat and you have to use the engine and drag around the batterys until there is enough charge to use them again..

Seen that new Lexus 4x4 hybrid?? yeah... great... seen how far it can go on electric alone.. ???
1.6 miles I think it states in very small print in the bottom of the ad...



LRP??? you mean LPG I think

LPG it.... drive it, enjoy...

[MrBeard]

WOW! Really surprised by that response.
[quote=toomanytoys]Hybrid is pretty inaffective..[/quote] I don't think that a 40% increase in mpg ineffective! Whilst I know we can't achieve anything like the prius or new avensis (74mpg). there are a hundred new ways t do this.

The most recent one I have seen is the Sigma Electrocharger, which replaces your alternator and give a 10-15% increase in mpg. Still locating a supplier atm

I expected a forum like this one and mechanically minded modifyers be willing to try anything to get improvements in acceleration or fuel economy.

[AdrianC]

Hybrid is pretty inaffective..

I don't think that a 40% increase in mpg ineffective!

I don't think it achievable, either.

Think about the basic physics of it. You're putting a certain amount of energy in (in the form of fuel) and you're getting a certain amount of energy out (in the form of motion and heat). The least efficient part of that process is the burning of the fuel - yet that's unchanged here. There are certain efficiencies that can be gained in the conversion of the crankshaft motion to that of the vehicle, but 40%? No. Piouses etc have regenerative brakes. Yet the one I test drove a few years ago still only achieved a computer-display 33mpg over an hour of fairly representative mixed-road driving.

I think that the official CO2 and MPG figures for hybrids are more representative of problems in translating the tests than any real-world benefits.

[Allanw]

The toyota Hybrids NEVER acheive their claimed MPG in real world use.

In the latest EnergyWise rally here in NZ, the best improvement over manufacturer claimed figures was: 23% better than claimed, in a Subaru 2.5 WRX STI. These are drivers TRYING to get the best economy they can. The Prius STILL did not acheive its claimed figures, let alone improve on them.

Top Gear (UK) used a Prius and a BMW 520D and ran them between two towns (in Germany I believe) not using motorways, but the urban route. The BMW acheived it's claimed figures, the Prius did not. The BMW economy was better than the Prius!

[toomanytoys]

Well.. get yer wallet out and get engineering it so you can prove us wrong..

When you have added 500kgs of batteries and motor etc.. and proved you have achieved anywhere near 40% in the real world, i'll buy it...

The figures the manufacturer claim and under ideal test conditions is totally different to the real world.. unfortunatly..

I'll look into The Sigma electrocharger but a quick scan shows...

"it is a performance device.."
"it can run for 2 mins continuously.... "

"Q. What can I expect if I was to install an Electrocharger™ in my car?
A. A real kick in the ass when you step on the gas pedal"

"Q. I am concerned about mileage after installation.
A. The ElectrochargerTM, while providing additional torque, doesn't burn extra gasoline to provide that power. Also, the customer doesn't need to switch from 89 octane to 91 octane gasoline"

"Approx pricing is 2800 US dollars.. "

[AdrianC]

I'll look into The Sigma electrocharger but a quick scan shows...

Even more tellingly...

Q. Do you have any performance charts that show 1/4 mile times with stock configuration and with Electrocharger™?
A. We will have the Electrocharger™ dyno information within the next few months and we will keep you posted with the results.

Q. How long has the Electrocharger™ product been on the market?
A. It was introduced at the SEMA show 2003 and will be reintroduced at SEMA 2004 with our new SR motor and Lithium-Ion battery pack.

[toomanytoys]

quick calc on the cost/improvement in mpg.. looks like a 67800 mile payback time... thats just the kit from the USA, not factoring how it will be installed and any syncro conversion parts that will be needed.. (now thats going to add a bit of cost too..


There are easier ways to get better mpg/running cost, to a 20 odd year old vehicle..

Underinflated tyres can easily suck 10% off the mpg..
a correctly tuned and set up engine (in good health)
dont run big wide tyres
dont carry loads of stuff about all the time
dont leave roof rack/bars on
Drive slower and read the conditions..

this all costs very little..

My syncro has LPG
the current engine is being swapped out (current one is very tired) with a fresh engine with high compression ratio that will take advantage of the LPG's properties..
Shortly I shall be able to travel faster for the same or even less cost... and save even more if I can keep my foot out of it...

Fitting a scooby engine (ie:- a more efficient design) can get a good 20-40 % improvement in mpg according to several scooby converted owners.. (again if you can keep the foot out of it)

Converting to TD/TDi can give a big improvement depeding on how well its done...

[syncropaddy]

so I have searched around the forum a bit but couldn't see if anyone had done this yet.

cheers
MrBeard

Well Mr Beard ...... I wonder why?

Why are you talking about Lead Replacement Petrol?

I have a beard too !!

[MrBeard]

I have since discovered that sigma failed due to trying to use capacitors that were ineficient, but several other are trying to use the same tech with new higher tech batteries.

Yes sorry the LRP in the title was just bad typing and supposed to be LPG (too much time roleplaying)


[quote=toomanytoys]There are easier ways to get better mpg/running cost, to a 20 odd year old vehicle..

Underinflated tyres can easily suck 10% off the mpg..
a correctly tuned and set up engine (in good health)
dont run big wide tyres
dont carry loads of stuff about all the time
dont leave roof rack/bars on
Drive slower and read the conditions..[/quote]

Been there, doing that, still only getting 23mpg (average)

[quote=toomanytoys]Well.. get yer wallet out and get engineering it so you can prove us wrong.[/quote
Happily, as soon as I can find a suitable set up

Yes I did love it when Top Gear trashed the Prius, and I agree that the Prius does not live up to expectations, however there are several university funded individual vehicles that do. Prius just got overly technical with their computer calculations, in fact there is a hack available that allows you to modify it to your driving style and general terrain, which adds upto 20% to the normal Prius stats.

Anyway, just as soon as I have fixed the overheating in the engine so the LPG is happy and I can get a cost mpg from that too I can install the Motors.
I have a plan....

Actually my biggest concern is how will the insurance change (but then it would if I replaced the enhgine with a modern version too)

[lloydy]

I've never quite got the obsession with MPG, we all drive a vehicle thats a minimum of 20 years old. MPG is always going to be in the 20's, i honestly don't think thats too bad especially for a vehicle our size and weight. Environmentally, the stuff used in the batteries and the way they are produced is awful (for electric cars like prius).
If you have a petrol van, LPG it. If you have a diesel, put a TDI in.
If you do go the electic route, good luck .
I just think that if it was a viable power source every manufacturer would have their own model

[jimmypatch]

I have actually been thinking of doing this myself.
The way i would do it is by dropping in an efficient engine like the 1.4 TDI from a polo which runs totally independent from the electric motor.
I would mate up two electric motors to the front wheels (syncro required) the power for the motors would come from a couple of batteries which inturn are fed by a small petrol/ diesel generator....simples

[MrBeard]

I have actually been thinking of doing this myself.
The way i would do it is by dropping in an efficient engine like the 1.4 TDI from a polo which runs totally independent from the electric motor.
I would mate up two electric motors to the front wheels (syncro required) the power for the motors would come from a couple of batteries which inturn are fed by a small petrol/ diesel generator....simples

Seems a good system. I like the idea of motor on wheels, I don't suppose we can modify something like this:Scooter wheel brushless wheel
Or maybe we need to use something more like:700w front wheel Electric Ebike Kit and remove the spokes etc

I was thinking of charging the batteries with a plug in system or a set of solar cells on the roof.

[toomanytoys]

23 is prob about as a 2 ton brick shaped, with an old design of engine is gonna get I am afraid.. with some carefull tweaking and setting up, + even more driving style improvements, then you might get to see 26.. at a push but thats it...

Generating electricity to drive the vehicle along is inefficient.. the losses all add up..
Take a std small generator of 2.5 kw.. thats naff all power really.. the prius motors are 50kw (from memory)

Improving the internal combustion engine is whats needed.. and its possible.. about 90% of the energy in petrol is wasted... heat, friction, rotational mass etc etc.. actually, the law and catalytic converters are holding back mpg improvements.. a cat doesnt work with lean burn very well and only works in a certain temp range.. In a carburettor engine with no cat etc.. on a part throttle at a steady speed, ignition advances and fueling is low, therfore a lean burn occurs.. on an injected engine with lambda the ecu see's the lean condition and therefore more fuel is added to "protect" the cat.. (its a bit more complicated than that to be fair, but thats the outline )

[Si_P]

You just cannot get something for nothing. Electric hybrids are better at massaging your conscience than saving the planet.

If you power only from the engine (no solar or regenerative breaking) then you cannot get more energy out than you previously did without your batteries but you will have additional weight to tow around.

The greenest cars on the market are all ultra aerodynamic very efficient diesels with stop-start tech etc.

On the basis that nothing sensible can be done about the aerodynamics it would be interesting to see if an engine which switches off at the lights etc. can be installed and the effectiveness of this. Of course if your fitting electric motors you could try fro regenerative breaking too.

I'm sceptical but very interested to see the end results.