Advice please: Dead 2.1 - replace or alternative engine?

[Swampy]

Hi guys, thought this might be the correct place to ask this question.

Pa-In-Law's 2.1 injected Caravelle has finally had it.

I believe it was the 2.1 digifant engine. It was also converted on the continent to run on LPG.

It's now dead, aparrently. Lots of problems. Mechanic told him he might as well simply replace the engine for the labour/work that needs doing.

So he needs a new engine & is having trouble a) locating a replacement 2.1 engine & b) affording a replacement 2.1 engine...

Would it be cheaper to obtain an alternative engine & install that instead of trying to find a replacement to the 2.1? He will almost certainly want it converting to LPG at some point in the future, as he's got the tanks etc ready installed.

I reckon he'll also need a mechanc to do the work either way.

Any advice appreciated. He's currently in Southend, if that helps.

[Aidan]

2.1 MV with lpg, er, I'd just stick in another engine of the same type, though you could run a DJ block but I don't know how well it would run but I'd expect the digifant to get to grips with it as long as you keep the lambda.
You don't say what's up with yours...rebuilding that could be the best option, or buy one of Marco the TSE's if they are still for sale; I've several MVs but none of them are known good fautless low milage fsh plug and play ones, they all want refreshing, you aren't likely to come upon a really fresh one unless you find a front ended van that had an exchange engine

[Swampy]

There are a number of issues with it, I believe. Mick's coming back for the weekend by train, so I'll have more detail there.

Head failure was one of the problems. Lots of overheating & driving has made that one more serious.

He made it from Dartford to Southend (his place of work) by filling up his coolant with water & driving until the engine croaked due to overheating. He let it cool & repeated this to get to work.

Stubborn bloke, my Pa-in-Law...

He was told by a mechanic who moonlights at his place of work that, due to the damage caused (again I still don't know the jobs list) & the cost of parts he might as well go for a new engine.

I personally reckon, if easiest thing is like-for-like replacement, to have the exising engine rebuilt. Can't be as expensive as getting a decent new 2.1 MV engine, surely?

At least if we did that there's a fighting chance of getting the LPG back on, as we have all the parts.

Might give Steve at Gasure a shout. If his Southern England chap is up for doing the rebuild as well as keeping it on gas, then that might be an idea.

Thanks for the advice, Aidan.

[toomanytoys]

Yeah, driving it with no water till it actually stops and than doing it again and again is always the best way to frell an engine..

He'll now need to either pay the surcharge as his one is so fubared not many peeps will find owt usable in it.. or find a suitable engine to give in exchange..

As said.. finding a good used one can be hit and miss.. but they do come up..

there isnt going to be anything cheaper than the same engine going back in, unless you can do it all your selves..

DJ engine should work fine on the MV injection, the only difference is a higher compression ratio..

[jimmypatch]

Just smash a subaru engine in and start enjoying driving again

[mm289]

Hiya,
looking at your sig you must be my most local club member

Rebuild can be very expensive depending on the state of the original - and as toomanytoys has said, cooking, cooling, cooking, cooling is usually a gauranteed way of doing a fair bit of damage

If you want an idea of parts costs for re-build have a look at the last page of my thread here http://forum.club8090.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=80287 - in the end I decided it wasn't practical and got a used one that was a runner and am doing water seals etc on before putting back in.

Replacement runners tend to go for between £300 (if you find someone in the club doing a swap out to aaz or something) upto £600 for breakers/e-bay. New engine from someone like Marco or Vega expect to pay about £1350, wouldn't go for one of the cheaper "recons" as when you look at the parts prices I would be dubious what they have actually replaced.

Just out of interest, are you sure its and MV - you said Digifant injection rather than Digijet - just wondered if that was based on accurate information or a typo?

Cheers,

MM

[Swampy]

looking at your sig you must be my most local club member

Fair point! There are a few Vans round here. 3 in my village (Temple Ewell) all in various states of disrepair!

Regard the engine code: I'll be honest Pa-in-Law always told me his is the expensive 2.1... The one that goes like the clappers compared to the other VW engines, but costs more than any other to fix due to it's complexity. I'll check the engine code with him to be sure. My own limited experience is with the diesel engines, so I just assumed it was the later Digifant engine. I'm seeing Mick tomorrow, so will try & get a straight answer out of him plus list of jobs.

I'll be frank, Mick's a brilliant engineer - can turn his hand to anything & is very mechanically minded. Only problem is he's stubborn as a mule & at 65 he's kind of off the idea of engine rebuilding, especially as we have no driveway or internal space to work. (I'd love to have a bash, mind. Let's face it We can't damage it further!)

Thanks for that parts list. I'll use that when I talk to Mick.

[mm289]

DJ is the more powerful 2.1 engine, 112 bhp with digijet FI
MV is still 2.1 watercooled but lower compression ration and has digifant FI - 89-95 bhp

If you want to know a bit more look here http://www.brick-yard.co.uk/VehicleSpec ... engine.htm

Cheers,

MM

[Swampy]

I was wrong, he does have the DJ engine. My apologies.

He says there's a hairline crack on the inside of one of the heads. Apparently between the bits the pushrods go into?

And the mechanic who took the head off took the wrong one off - the other head is the one that is also leaking like crazy, so pandora's box lurks on that side!

Also, the mechanic just jumbled up the pushrods, so christ knows which order they went in if we were to try & just do the heads alone

Basically it sounds like he needs 2 new or recon heads (plus all the gaskets etc that entails). I'm also guessing now we've had the pushrods jumbled up, they might need replacing. Mick said if they're to be replaced the tappets would need replacing as well. The mechanic quoted £400 for the heads in parts alone.

From the way Mick was talking it sounds like his mind's made up to get a replacement engine. He wants to keep his Van for good, so fair enough.

Thanks for the subaru suggestion, but he wants to keep it as VW as poss, so I think a recon or 2nd hand DJ engine is in order.

I reckon we should tow it from Southend to a VW-friendly mechanic & let them get on with it. Mick's not really up for doing the transplant himself.

I'm going to take your advice, price up the job myself (thanks for that link) & write it all down for Mick. I just want to cross-check what this mechanic's said to Mick. I always read that if you start dismantling an engine, head-wise, you get an upturned cardboard box, punch holes in, label what goes in which chamber, etc. For this mechanic to just toss all the bits into the back of Mick's van just sounds like he didn't want the job.

Thanks for all your help on this. Guess I'll start browsing the "For Sale" section!

[mm289]

yeh, not good practice to mix up the pushrods although if you were rebuilding the heads anyway I am not convinced it would make that much difference - but I stand to be corrected

Difficult to know where the crack is your talking about. If it is between the valves inside the head this is quite common and depending on how deep it is can be left or repaired.

If he has got both heads of without snapping any studs then he has done well. If the engine is leaking water from the seal between the head and the case (big rubber channel seal) then this is pretty common and not that difficult to sort now the heads are off.

The real issue is you don't know what other damage has been done by the engine cooking.

I am guessing that Mick realises it is hydraulic tappets in his engine and not normal solid ones? Wouldn't particularly be worried about replacing tappets/rocker rail unless it showed evidence of damage.

Cheers,

MM

[toomanytoys]

My biggest concern would the be the bottom end.. they dont fair well when the oil has been very hot and if it actually stopped coz it was hot then its prob picked up a bearing or scuffed it at least... just doing a top end job is a risk... as if the big ends have been stressed, then it WILL throw a rod out of the case at some point.. and there wont be a lot useable left of the engine after that happens...

Pushrods prob wont matter, but you really need to keep the tappets (cam followers) on the same lobes if servicable.. they develop a wear pattern that swapping them around can cause accelerated wear....

[Swampy]

Right, thanks for that. Mick has been seriously considering just whacking the old heads back on with new gaskets & trying to get a few more miles out before the engine is finally officially dead.

@toomanytoys: I agree. I reckon he's caused more damage than he's letting on. Last thing I want is for him to waste money on rebuilding the top-end for it to blowup in a couple of hundred miles.

@mm289: Yes, the crack he was describing was between the valves. He reckons he can leave then crack at the expense of some compression. I wasn't convinced, but if others have got away with this in the past, then it might be worth a punt. Didn't know they could be repaired though. The previous mechanic was going to order 2 new heads.

The studs didn't snap off the head that was removed. However, it was the head that had the least wrong with it! The other head's been leaking, apparently, so I reckon getting that head off is going to be a job for a pro.

Encouraging to hear about the pushrods, though. I'm going to pass this all onto him. (I must set up an account for him one day).

Much appreciated.

[mm289]

When you remove the other head I have found soaking the nuts with a good penetrating oil overnight and then warming them up with a blow torch has been succesful.

From memory, you can get away with a crack upto 0.5 mm, need to see if it extends down into the valve seats as well.

Before you take the other head off I would give it a compression test or preferably a leak down then you will know for sure the state of the valves sealing etc.

Cheers,

MM

[toomanytoys]

From memory, you can get away with a crack upto 0.5 mm, need to see if it extends down into the valve seats as well.

Before you take the other head off I would give it a compression test or preferably a leak down then you will know for sure the state of the valves sealing etc.

Cheers,

MM

Cracks good to know, as I have a few heads I was concerned about with some small cracks between the inlet and exh seats

Leak down.. Mmm.. prob not worth doing on it as the rings are prob well shot...

[mm289]

Some good stuff on the samba about cracks etc.

Thing i like about leak down tests is at least you can tell what is shot - if the rings are gone you will hear the compression dissapearing into the sump/oil filler areas, whereas a knackered valve will show up straight away as it wont hold compression at all or at least you will hear it coming out inlet/exhaust.

I find it a really useful diagnostic tool to use before you start stripping

MM