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ultimate wheel post

Post by kevtherev »

Saw this on the samba (American website)
there is a lot of great info for fitting Alloys here

Written by loogy


For this thread, I will be trying to keep things as simple and to the point as possible. If anyone is still unclear on certain wheel terminologies, please see the following sites for some very clear explanations.

The Tire Rack
RS Racing

So here are the facts as I see them:

Bolt pattern:
The Vanagon bolt pattern is 5x112. This is shared with Mercedes, many Audis and many VWs. Other bolt patterns can be used on a Vanagon through the use of adapters. In order to use adapters, the offset of the wheels should be 50mm or more (at least for the front).

Offset and wheel size:
Wheel size and offset go hand in hand in most cases. The ideal offset for the front of a Vanagon is 30mm through 39mm. A little more or less is sometimes okay, but it really is best to stay as close to the ideal as possible. The following is a list of wheel sizes and their recommended offsets in relation to the FRONT of a Vanagon:
  • 15x6 - ET30 through ET35
    15x6.5 - ET30 through ET35
    15x7 - ET30 through ET32
    15x7.5 - ET25 (not recommended)
    15x8 - ET18 (not recommended at all - wheel will be outside the wheel opening)

    16x6 - ET30 through ET35
    16x7 - ET30 through ET35
    16x7.5 - ET28 through ET30
    16x8 - ET17 (not recommended at all - wheel will be outside the wheel opening)

    17x7 - ET30 through ET35
    17x7.5 - ET28 through ET30
    17x8 - ET25 through ET30 (possible slight upper control arm modification needed)
    17x8.5 - ET23 (not recommended)

Below are a series of illustrations showing how the Vanagon suffers from a height versus width issue when it comes to fitting wheels onto the front. The illustrations, although slightly exaggerated, clearly show how simply changing the diameter of the wheel can have a profound impact on the fitment.

Image
Image
Image
Image

***Please see the notes at the end for more information***

Centerbore:
Mercedes wheels have a 66.56mm centerbore. Audi/VW wheels have a 57.1mm centerbore. Due the large diameter of the Vanagon's front grease cap, a centerbore of at least 64mm is required. Obviously the Mercedes wheels will fit just fine but the Audi/VW wheels must have their centerbores enlarged in order to fit. I recommend that the Audi/VW centerbore be opened up to the same inner diameter of the Mercedes wheels, 66.56mm. The reason is that this gives good clearance for the grease cap as well as allows the owner of the wheels to install a 66.56 to 57.1 hubcentric ring adapter should they ever choose to sell or use these wheels on an Audi/VW again. It's nice to have options and if you are having the centerbores opened up anyway.....

Lug nuts, lug bolts, wheel studs and wheel thickness:
Mercedes wheels that originally were designed for use with 12mm lug bolts must be drilled to accommodate 14mm wheel hardware. Although a 9/16" drill bit will work for this, I recommend a 37/64" drill bit for a little more clearance around the lugs. Make sure you debur the hole after drilling.

12mm lugged Mercedes wheels and Audi/VW wheels use a small ball seat lug. Original Vanagon lugs are too big to seat properly. See the following picture for the difference.

Image

How do you know if your wheels require the small ball seat lugs or if the stock Vanagon lugs will work? Simple! If you had to drill out the lug holes of your factory Mercedes wheels (not aftermarket) for 14mm wheel hardware, you need the small ball seat lugs. If your wheels are factory Audi/VW, you need the small ball seat lugs.

Mercedes wheels that originally came with 14mm lug bolts can be used in conjunction with the stock Vanagon lug nuts.

Each wheel measures slightly different from the base of the lug seat to the wheel mounting face. See the following illustration for an explanation. The area in question is depicted as the lighter blue arrow. This measurement must be known in order to make an accurate assessment as to the necessary length for wheel studs and lug bolts.

Image

Measuring for rear wheel studs:

Image

2wd and Syncro Vanagon rear wheel studs are 34.4mm long overall. 23.4mm protrudes from the hub/brake drum.

Syncro front wheel studs are approximately 45mm long overall. Approximately 23.4mm protrudes from the hub/brake rotor.
(I say approximately because I have not measured this myself. I have had to rely on others for this information)

Lug torque will remain the same no matter what wheels you are running. Lugs should be torqued to 132 lb-ft.

Centercaps:
Due to the long hub/grease cap of the Vanagon, fitting centercaps can be a challenge. If you are overly concerned about having centercaps, try to choose a wheel that has the flattest face possible. The more that the wheel is "dished" in toward the center, the less likely it is that you will be able to fit a centercap. Even with a flat faced wheel, the mounting style of the centercap may still prevent it's use.

See the following illustration to help you determine if a particular wheel's centercap might fit.

Image

Keep in mind that there are two sizes of grease caps that came on Vanagons. By far the most common is 35mm in height. The taller version is 43mm in height. It is possible to shorten the 35mm grease cap by approx. 5mm if needed for centercap clearance. The 43mm grease cap could be shortened by 13mm.

The following photo shows the tallest grease cap on the left, the most common cap in the center and the 5mm shortened version on the right.

Image

Note for those either running or contemplating Van-Café (SA) big brakes:
The SA big brake kit uses a hub that has different dimensions than the original Vanagon brake rotor/hub. They also use press in studs like the rear instead of lug bolts. Here are some critical specs from the SA big brake that one should be aware of when using them in conjunction with various wheels.

The SA hub tapers from approx. 60.1mm at the grease cap to 65.86mm at the mounting face of the brake rotor. This information is critical when it comes to enlarging the centerbores of Audi/VW wheels as well as the use of hubcentric spacers. I still suggest that Audi/VW wheels have their centerbores opened up to 66.56mm.

The SA hub also positions the track width (measured from mounting face to mounting face) 5mm narrower than the stock brake set-up. This means that a given wheel will mount 2.5mm (2.5mm per side) further inboard when using the SA brake kit as compared to the stock Vanagon brakes. If you're current wheel or wheel/spacer combination is really close to either the upright, upper control arm or both with the stock Vanagon brakes, it is possible that you could run into clearance issues when switching to the SA brakes.

The SA hub uses press-in studs that are 51mm in overall length. 29.7mm protrude from the hub once the rotor is installed. This information is critical when it comes to knowing whether or not a particular wheel or wheel/spacer combination will leave with enough threads to properly install the lug nuts. The knurl (spline) diameter of the SA studs is 15.1mm.
Porsche spec studs can be used as a replacement, but a tack weld at each stud head may be necessary to keep the stud from spinning in the bore under extreme conditions.



Additional notes:
Note: When installing spacers, adapters or even just changing wheels, it is usually necessary to remove the two 11mm headed bolts from the rear drums. These bolts serve no practical purpose and it is perfectly fine to discard them.

Note: Keep in mind that the higher the offset, the less clearance you will have to critical suspension components. If you plan on running a wider than normal tire, check your clearances very carefully.

Note: Spacers can only be used to correct a wheel's offset if it is too large. Spacers will not help you if the wheel's offset is too small. Only machining of the wheels can help you there.

Note: The offset does not need to be the same front and rear on a Vanagon. Sometimes it is actually better to have different offsets front and rear. The rear suspension is much less dynamic than the front and therefore is not nearly as sensitive to offset changes.

Note: If you follow the same fitting guidelines for the front and rear of your Vanagon, you can be assured that the rear will fit properly without any sliding door clearance issues. For example, 16x7 with an effective offset of 30mm (after any spacers) will work both front and rear with no problems.

Note: The offset of the wheels can affect the tire clearance greatly. More offset at the front wheels will give you more clearance to the body but less clearance to the front suspension components. Body to tire clearance is usually not a problem on the rear of a Vanagon but more offset will decrease the clearance between the tire and rear control arm as will a larger diameter. Please keep this in mind when comparing wheel and tire combinations that others have used.

Note: Syncros and 2wd Vanagons have very different front suspension parameters. Syncros can handle a much wider variation of front wheel widths and offsets. However, if you follow the 2wd front wheel guidelines, you can be assured that the wheels will fit your Syncro as well.

Well, I think that about covers it. If I forgot something, please let me know and I will add it in.[/quote]
Last edited by kevtherev on 01 Aug 2009, 23:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by ringo »

Thats brilliant that is Kev,

Interesting about the wheel nuts. I have some mercedes rims to put on - i need to drill the holes to 14mm (im assuming the guy goes imperial (37/64") is so that there is 14mm plus clearance?). Anyway - i have learnt something new, as i now know i need small ball seat lugs.

Best get on ebay.....

Ringo
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Post by john-paul »

Nice one mate........Many, many questions answered...TA MUCH.

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Post by ricicles »

i know i know i know.!!! i had the wrong wheels on my van for to long (empi5) wheel bearings still ok just got new mot last week, no advisory :D i think i got away with it this time :D

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Post by lloyd »

Great find Kev. Can we wiki it?
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Post by ringo »

ricicles wrote:i know i know i know.!!! i had the wrong wheels on my van for to long (empi5) wheel bearings still ok just got new mot last week, no advisory :D i think i got away with it this time :D

Still got mine on for now.

I've heard from a few people that have ran empi 5's and brm's without issues....

Ringo
Now driving a big bad VW LT Florida.

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Post by ricicles »

still got them in the garage! should i put them back on and be a rebel? they do look v cool. :D

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Post by kevtherev »

lloyd wrote:Great find Kev. Can we wiki it?

suppose so

I could try and E D I T the North American terminology and references... but then I'm no American, so it would need an expert ....

know any Natives Lloyd?

:D
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Post by Titus A Duxass »

Editing- I do this for a living. If you want I'll translate it into proper English.
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Post by kevtherev »

you da man titus!

E D I T away... repost it and it can be wikied.
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Post by Titus A Duxass »

This is the updated text, I'm not smart enough to deal with pictures. Someone must transfer them over from the original.
I have not changed the order nor where the pictures appear so it should be straight forward.
Comments, changes and corrections are welcome.
If you find any spelling mistakes, please keep them I have enough here.

Please remember that I only Anglicised the text, I am not responsible for the technical content or the accuracy of that technical content.


Text Begins.


VW Standard Wheel Information

Diameter
The diameter of wheels, even in this Metric age, is always measured in inches ("). The Standard diameter for a T25 is a piddly 14". This does not apply to Synchros, these have wheel diameters of 14", 15" and even, if you are very lucky, 16".
Width
The width of wheels is also measured in inches; the standard for the T25 Steel wheel is a 5.5" width rim. For the standard Alloys this increases to a width of 6" This measurement is sometimes written with a leading J - i.e. J5.5
Bolt/Stud Pattern
The Bolt/Stud pattern or Pitch Circle Diameter (PCD)- This is the diameter, spacing and number of the wheel studs or bolts. The T25 standard PCD is 5x112 meaning five (5) Wheel Studs or Wheel Bolts equally spaced in a circle whose diameter is 112mm.
Wheel Offset
The Wheel offset is the measurement in millimeters from the centre line of the wheel to the face where the wheel retainers (Wheel Nuts or Wheel Bolts) mate with the wheel. This measurement is often stamped on the rim as e.g. ET 30 ET means - Einpresstiefe which is German for inset depth.
Summary
Most 2WD T25s left the factory with either:
Steel Wheels of 14 inches in Diameter with a Width of 5.5 inches, a stud pattern of 5 studs in a circle of 112 mm and an offset of 39 mm,
This is normally written as 14x5.5 PCD 5/112 ET39.
Or
Alloy wheels of 14 inches in Diameter with a Width of 6 inches, a stud pattern of 5 studs in a circle of 112 mm and an Offset of 30 mm.
Again this is normally written as 14x6 PCD 5/112 ET30.

Points to consider when changing Wheels

Bolt/Stud Pattern
The PCD 5/112 is common to Mercedes, many Audis and many VWs. Other PCDs, i.e. Porsche, can be used on a VW T25 through the use of adapters.

The use adaptors mean that any alternative wheel must have an offset of at least 50 mm (particularly the front wheels).
Wheels with an offset below 50 mm means the wheels will stick out too far leading to:
Fouling of the bodywork,
Heavy steering, even a tendency to want to go straight on,
Increased load on the wheel bearings reducing the life of the bearings.


Wheel Offset and wheel size
Wheel size and offset go hand in hand in most cases. The ideal offset for the front of a VW T25 is between 30mm and 39mm. A little more or less is sometimes okay, but it really is best to stay as close to the ideal as possible. The following is a list of wheel sizes and their recommended offsets in relation to the FRONT of a VW T25:
15x6 - ET30 - ET35
15x6.5 - ET30 - ET35
15x7 - ET30 - ET32
15x7.5 - ET25 (not recommended)
15x8 - ET18 (not recommended at all - wheel will be outside the wheel opening)

16x6 - ET30 - ET35
16x7 - ET30 - ET35
16x7.5 - ET28 - ET30
16x8 - ET17 (not recommended at all - wheel will be outside the wheel opening)

17x7 - ET30 - ET35
17x7.5 - ET28 - ET30
17x8 - ET25 - ET30 (possible slight upper control arm modification needed)
17x8.5 - ET23 (not recommended)


Below are a series of illustrations showing how the VW T25 suffers from a height versus width issue when it comes to fitting wheels onto the front. The illustrations, although slightly exaggerated, clearly show how simply changing the diameter of the wheel can have a big impact on the fitment.









Hub bore or Centre bore
The Hub bore or Centre bore is quite simply, the hole through the middle of the wheel. Contrary to popular belief this is only to centrally position the wheel on the hub; it does not have anything to with keeping the wheel on the vehicle. If the hole is too small your centre cap/trim will not fit or, even worse, the wheel itself will not fit on the Hub.

T25 Wheels have a Hub bore diameter of 66mm, Mercedes wheels have a 66.56mm centre bore. Other Audi/VW wheels have a 57.1mm centre bore.
Due the large diameter of the VW T25's front grease cap, a centre bore of at least 64mm is required; maybe even more if a centre cap is to be fitted.

Obviously the Mercedes wheels will fit just fine but the Audi/VW wheels must have their centre bores enlarged in order to fit. It is recommended that the Audi/VW centre bore be opened up to the same inner diameter of the Mercedes wheels, 66.56mm, this gives good clearance for the grease cap.

This enlarging of the centre bore is not a task that can be carried out using DIY tools; it must be carried out by someone who knows what they are doing.

Wheel Nuts, Wheel Studs and Wheel thickness
The 2WD T25 has the slightly unusual setup of Wheel Studs & Nuts for the Rear wheels and Wheel Bolts for the front wheels. These both require a wheel with 14mm diameter holes for the Wheel Studs/Bolts.

Mercedes wheels are designed for use with 12mm diameter Wheel Bolts so therefore they must be bored out to the 14mm VW requirement. It is highly recommended that this task be undertaken by someone who knows what they are doing.

Another factor to consider is the shape of the mating face of the Wheel Nut or Wheel bolt. Depending upon the material/make of the Wheel itself these Wheel Nuts/Bolts either have a conical or cone shaped face that mates with the wheel or a ball shaped face that mates with the wheel.
Standard VW 14" alloy wheels (carat) need to be mounted with cone type Nuts/Bolts whereas Standard VW 14" steel wheels need the ball faced type.

Mercedes and Audi/VW wheels with 12 mm holes use a small ball seat Nuts/Bolts. Original VW T25 Nuts/Bolts are too big to seat properly. The following picture shows the difference in size.


How do you know if your wheels require the small ball seat Wheel Nuts/Bolts or if the standard Wheel Nuts/Bolts will work? Simple! If you had to drill out the holes of your factory Mercedes wheels (not aftermarket) to 14 mm, you need the small ball seat Nuts/Bolts. If your wheels are factory Audi/VW, you need the small ball seat Nuts/Bolts.

Mercedes wheels with 14mm holes can use the standard VW T25 Nuts/Bolts.

Wheel Stud/Bolt Length
Fitting alloy wheels and/or Wheel Spacers will mean that longer Wheel Studs/Bolts will be required to safely secure the wheel. Different types of Wheel have varying thickness from the base of the Nut/Bolt seat to the wheel mounting face. The following illustration provides a clear explanation. The area in question is that highlighted by light blue arrow. This measurement must be known in order calculate the necessary length for replacement Wheel Studs and Wheel Bolts.

Front Wheels

Rear Wheels


The standard 2wd and Syncro VW T25 rear wheel studs are 34.4mm long overall. Approximately of 23.4mm of this stud protrudes from the Brake Drum.

On Syncros the front wheel studs are approximately 45mm long overall. Again approximately 23.4mm protrudes from the Hub/Brake Disc.

Wheel Nut/Wheel Bolt torque will remain the same no matter what wheels you are running. All should be torque tightened to 132 lb-ft.

Centre Caps:
Due to the long hub/grease cap of the VW T25, fitting centre caps can be a challenge. If you are overly concerned about having centre caps, try to choose a wheel that has the flattest face possible. The more that the wheel is "dished" in toward the centre, the less likely it is that you will be able to fit a centre cap. Even with a flat faced wheel, the mounting style of the centre cap may still prevent its use.

See the following illustration to help you determine if a particular wheel's centre cap might fit.

Keep in mind that there are two sizes of grease caps that came on VW T25s. By far the most common is 35mm in height. The taller version is 43mm in height. It is possible to shorten the 35mm grease cap by approx. 5mm if needed for centre cap clearance. The 43mm grease cap could be shortened by 13mm.

The following photo shows the tallest grease cap on the left, the most common grease cap in the centre and the 5mm shortened version on the right.


Note for those either running or those thinking about fitting South African (SA) big brakes:
The SA big brake kit uses a hub that has different dimensions than the original VW T25 brake Hub/Brake disc. They also use press in Wheel Studs like the rear instead of Wheel Bolts. Here are some critical specs from the SA big brake that one should be aware of when using them in conjunction with various wheels.

The SA hub tapers from approx. 60.1mm at the grease cap to 65.86mm at the mounting face of the brake rotor. This information is critical when it comes to enlarging the centre bores of Audi/VW wheels as well as the use of hubcentric spacers. I still suggest that Audi/VW wheels have their centre bores opened up to 66.56mm.

The SA hub also positions the track width (measured from mounting face to mounting face) 5mm narrower than the stock brake set-up. This means that a given wheel will mount 2.5mm (2.5mm per side) further inboard when using the SA brake kit as compared to the stock VW T25 brakes. If your current wheel or wheel/spacer combination is really close to either the upright, upper control arm or both with the stock VW T25 brakes, it is possible that you could run into clearance issues when switching to the SA brakes.

The SA hub uses press-in studs that are 51mm in overall length. 29.7mm protrude from the hub once the Brake Disc is installed. This information is critical when it comes to knowing whether or not a particular wheel or wheel/spacer combination will leave with enough threads to properly install the Wheel Nuts (The German MoT specialist look for a minimum of seven (7) turns). The knurl (spline) diameter of the SA studs is 15.1mm.
Porsche spec studs can be used as a replacement, but a tack weld at each stud head may be necessary to keep the stud from spinning in the bore under extreme conditions.


Additional notes:

Note 1: When installing spacers, adapters or even just changing wheels, it is usually necessary to remove the two 11mm headed bolts from the rear drums. These bolts serve no practical purpose and it is perfectly fine to discard them.

Note 2: Keep in mind that the higher the offset, the less clearance you will have to critical suspension components. If you plan on running a wider than normal tyre, check your clearances very carefully.

Note 3: Spacers can only be used to correct a wheel's offset if it is too large. Spacers will not help you if the wheel's offset is too small. Only machining of the wheels can help you there.

Note 4: The offset does not need to be the same front and rear on a VW T25. Sometimes it is actually better to have different offsets front and rear. The rear suspension is much less dynamic than the front and therefore is not nearly as sensitive to offset changes.

Note 5: If you follow the same fitting guidelines for the front and rear of your VW T25, you can be assured that the rear will fit properly without any sliding door clearance issues. For example, 16x7 with an effective offset of 30mm (after any spacers) will work both front and rear with no problems.

Note 6: The offset of the wheels can affect the tyre clearance greatly. More offset at the front wheels will give you more clearance to the body but less clearance to the front suspension components. Body to tyre clearance is usually not a problem on the rear of a VW T25 but more offset will decrease the clearance between the tyre and rear control arm as will a larger diameter. Please keep this in mind when comparing wheel and tyre combinations that others have used.

Note 7: Syncros and 2wd VW T25s have very different front suspension parameters. Syncros can handle a much wider variation of front wheel widths and offsets. However, if you follow the 2wd front wheel guidelines, you can be assured that the wheels will fit your Syncro as well.
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Post by ricicles »

i can see what you are saying. i am am a idiot to think about putting them back on :D deffo not going to do it anyway as i love the look of the syncro 14s. i did find a set of brand new wheels that will fit our t3 vans available from sts 16 inch dia they do wheel and tyre deal for 750pounds :shock: is the bus gonna drive better with them on? i think not . they do look good though, a bit like one of the new vw wheels---- that looks a bit like most other car wheels these days--ho hum

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Post by kevtherev »

Thanks Titus ..good job!
If any one wants to add any observations and or notes... feel free




VW Standard Wheel Information

Diameter
The diameter of wheels, even in this Metric age, is always measured in inches ("). The Standard diameter for a T25 is a piddly 14". This does not apply to Synchros, these have wheel diameters of 14", 15" and even, if you are very lucky, 16".
Width
The width of wheels is also measured in inches; the standard for the T25 Steel wheel is a 5.5" width rim. For the standard Alloys this increases to a width of 6" This measurement is sometimes written with a leading J - i.e. J5.5
Bolt/Stud Pattern

The Bolt/Stud pattern or Pitch Circle Diameter (PCD)- This is the diameter, spacing and number of the wheel studs or bolts. The T25 standard PCD is 5x112 meaning five (5) Wheel Studs or Wheel Bolts equally spaced in a circle whose diameter is 112mm.
Wheel Offset
The Wheel offset is the measurement in millimeters from the centre line of the wheel to the face where the wheel retainers (Wheel Nuts or Wheel Bolts) mate with the wheel. This measurement is often stamped on the rim as e.g. ET 30 ET means - Einpresstiefe which is German for inset depth.
Summary
Most 2WD T25s left the factory with either:
Steel Wheels of 14 inches in Diameter with a Width of 5.5 inches, a stud pattern of 5 studs in a circle of 112 mm and an offset of 39 mm,
This is normally written as 14x5.5 PCD 5/112 ET39.
Or
Alloy wheels of 14 inches in Diameter with a Width of 6 inches, a stud pattern of 5 studs in a circle of 112 mm and an Offset of 30 mm.
Again this is normally written as 14x6 PCD 5/112 ET30.

Points to consider when changing Wheels


Bolt/Stud Pattern
The PCD 5/112 is common to Mercedes, many Audis and many VWs. Other PCDs, i.e. Porsche, can be used on a VW T25 through the use of adapters.

The use adaptors mean that any alternative wheel must have an offset of at least 50 mm (particularly the front wheels).
Wheels with an offset below 50 mm means the wheels will stick out too far leading to:
Fouling of the bodywork,
Heavy steering, even a tendency to want to go straight on,
Increased load on the wheel bearings reducing the life of the bearings.


Wheel Offset and wheel size
Wheel size and offset go hand in hand in most cases. The ideal offset for the front of a VW T25 is between 30mm and 39mm. A little more or less is sometimes okay, but it really is best to stay as close to the ideal as possible. The following is a list of wheel sizes and their recommended offsets in relation to the FRONT of a VW T25:
15x6 - ET30 - ET35
15x6.5 - ET30 - ET35
15x7 - ET30 - ET32
15x7.5 - ET25 (not recommended)
15x8 - ET18 (not recommended at all - wheel will be outside the wheel opening)

16x6 - ET30 - ET35
16x7 - ET30 - ET35
16x7.5 - ET28 - ET30
16x8 - ET17 (not recommended at all - wheel will be outside the wheel opening)

17x7 - ET30 - ET35
17x7.5 - ET28 - ET30
17x8 - ET25 - ET30 (possible slight upper control arm modification needed)
17x8.5 - ET23 (not recommended)


Below are a series of illustrations showing how the VW T25 suffers from a height versus width issue when it comes to fitting wheels onto the front. The illustrations, although slightly exaggerated, clearly show how simply changing the diameter of the wheel can have a big impact on the fitment.

[img:421:456]http://images31.fotki.com/v1057/photos/ ... ent-vi.jpg[/img]
[img:421:456]http://images30.fotki.com/v480/photos/5 ... ent-vi.jpg[/img]
[img:421:456]http://images32.fotki.com/v1061/photos/ ... ent-vi.jpg[/img]
[img:421:456]http://images34.fotki.com/v1078/photos/ ... ent-vi.jpg[/img]


Hub bore or Centre bore
The Hub bore or Centre bore is quite simply, the hole through the middle of the wheel. Contrary to popular belief this is only to centrally position the wheel on the hub; it does not have anything to with keeping the wheel on the vehicle. If the hole is too small your centre cap/trim will not fit or, even worse, the wheel itself will not fit on the Hub.

T25 Wheels have a Hub bore diameter of 66mm, Mercedes wheels have a 66.56mm centre bore. Other Audi/VW wheels have a 57.1mm centre bore.
Due the large diameter of the VW T25's front grease cap, a centre bore of at least 64mm is required; maybe even more if a centre cap is to be fitted.

Obviously the Mercedes wheels will fit just fine but the Audi/VW wheels must have their centre bores enlarged in order to fit. It is recommended that the Audi/VW centre bore be opened up to the same inner diameter of the Mercedes wheels, 66.56mm, this gives good clearance for the grease cap.

This enlarging of the centre bore is not a task that can be carried out using DIY tools; it must be carried out by someone who knows what they are doing.

Wheel Nuts, Wheel Studs and Wheel thickness
The 2WD T25 has the slightly unusual setup of Wheel Studs & Nuts for the Rear wheels and Wheel Bolts for the front wheels. These both require a wheel with 14mm diameter holes for the Wheel Studs/Bolts.

Mercedes wheels are designed for use with 12mm diameter Wheel Bolts so therefore they must be bored out to the 14mm VW requirement. It is highly recommended that this task be undertaken by someone who knows what they are doing.

Another factor to consider is the shape of the mating face of the Wheel Nut or Wheel bolt. Depending upon the material/make of the Wheel itself these Wheel Nuts/Bolts either have a conical or cone shaped face that mates with the wheel or a ball shaped face that mates with the wheel.
Standard VW 14" alloy wheels (carat) need to be mounted with cone type Nuts/Bolts whereas Standard VW 14" steel wheels need the ball faced type.

Mercedes and Audi/VW wheels with 12 mm holes use a small ball seat Nuts/Bolts. Original VW T25 Nuts/Bolts are too big to seat properly. The following picture shows the difference in size.


How do you know if your wheels require the small ball seat Wheel Nuts/Bolts or if the standard Wheel Nuts/Bolts will work? Simple! If you had to drill out the holes of your factory Mercedes wheels (not aftermarket) to 14 mm, you need the small ball seat Nuts/Bolts. If your wheels are factory Audi/VW, you need the small ball seat Nuts/Bolts.

[img:500:375]http://images27.fotki.com/v1021/photos/ ... 666-vi.jpg[/img]

Mercedes wheels with 14mm holes can use the standard VW T25 Nuts/Bolts.

Wheel Stud/Bolt Length
Fitting alloy wheels and/or Wheel Spacers will mean that longer Wheel Studs/Bolts will be required to safely secure the wheel. Different types of Wheel have varying thickness from the base of the Nut/Bolt seat to the wheel mounting face. The following illustration provides a clear explanation. The area in question is that highlighted by light blue arrow. This measurement must be known in order calculate the necessary length for replacement Wheel Studs and Wheel Bolts.

Front Wheels

[img:500:458]http://images34.fotki.com/v1150/photos/ ... ts1-vi.jpg[/img]

Rear Wheels

[img:500:458]http://images34.fotki.com/v1191/photos/ ... ds1-vi.jpg[/img]





The standard 2wd and Syncro VW T25 rear wheel studs are 34.4mm long overall. Approximately of 23.4mm of this stud protrudes from the Brake Drum.

On Syncros the front wheel studs are approximately 45mm long overall. Again approximately 23.4mm protrudes from the Hub/Brake Disc.

Wheel Nut/Wheel Bolt torque will remain the same no matter what wheels you are running. All should be torque tightened to 132 lb-ft.

Centre Caps:
Due to the long hub/grease cap of the VW T25, fitting centre caps can be a challenge. If you are overly concerned about having centre caps, try to choose a wheel that has the flattest face possible. The more that the wheel is "dished" in toward the centre, the less likely it is that you will be able to fit a centre cap. Even with a flat faced wheel, the mounting style of the centre cap may still prevent its use.

See the following illustration to help you determine if a particular wheel's centre cap might fit.

[img:499:500]http://images36.fotki.com/v1181/photos/ ... ap3-vi.jpg[/img]


Keep in mind that there are two sizes of grease caps that came on VW T25s. By far the most common is 35mm in height. The taller version is 43mm in height. It is possible to shorten the 35mm grease cap by approx. 5mm if needed for centre cap clearance. The 43mm grease cap could be shortened by 13mm.

The following photo shows the tallest grease cap on the left, the most common grease cap in the centre and the 5mm shortened version on the right.

[img:500:375]http://images31.fotki.com/v1039/photos/ ... 951-vi.jpg[/img]


Note for those either running or those thinking about fitting South African (SA) big brakes:
The SA big brake kit uses a hub that has different dimensions than the original VW T25 brake Hub/Brake disc. They also use press in Wheel Studs like the rear instead of Wheel Bolts. Here are some critical specs from the SA big brake that one should be aware of when using them in conjunction with various wheels.

The SA hub tapers from approx. 60.1mm at the grease cap to 65.86mm at the mounting face of the brake rotor. This information is critical when it comes to enlarging the centre bores of Audi/VW wheels as well as the use of hubcentric spacers. I still suggest that Audi/VW wheels have their centre bores opened up to 66.56mm.

The SA hub also positions the track width (measured from mounting face to mounting face) 5mm narrower than the stock brake set-up. This means that a given wheel will mount 2.5mm (2.5mm per side) further inboard when using the SA brake kit as compared to the stock VW T25 brakes. If your current wheel or wheel/spacer combination is really close to either the upright, upper control arm or both with the stock VW T25 brakes, it is possible that you could run into clearance issues when switching to the SA brakes.

The SA hub uses press-in studs that are 51mm in overall length. 29.7mm protrude from the hub once the Brake Disc is installed. This information is critical when it comes to knowing whether or not a particular wheel or wheel/spacer combination will leave with enough threads to properly install the Wheel Nuts (The German MoT specialist look for a minimum of seven (7) turns). The knurl (spline) diameter of the SA studs is 15.1mm.
Porsche spec studs can be used as a replacement, but a tack weld at each stud head may be necessary to keep the stud from spinning in the bore under extreme conditions.


Additional notes:
Note 1: When installing spacers, adapters or even just changing wheels, it is usually necessary to remove the two 11mm headed bolts from the rear drums. These bolts serve no practical purpose and it is perfectly fine to discard them.

Note 2: Keep in mind that the higher the offset, the less clearance you will have to critical suspension components. If you plan on running a wider than normal tyre, check your clearances very carefully.

Note 3: Spacers can only be used to correct a wheel's offset if it is too large. Spacers will not help you if the wheel's offset is too small. Only machining of the wheels can help you there.

Note 4: The offset does not need to be the same front and rear on a VW T25. Sometimes it is actually better to have different offsets front and rear. The rear suspension is much less dynamic than the front and therefore is not nearly as sensitive to offset changes.

Note 5: If you follow the same fitting guidelines for the front and rear of your VW T25, you can be assured that the rear will fit properly without any sliding door clearance issues. For example, 16x7 with an effective offset of 30mm (after any spacers) will work both front and rear with no problems.

Note 6: The offset of the wheels can affect the tyre clearance greatly. More offset at the front wheels will give you more clearance to the body but less clearance to the front suspension components. Body to tyre clearance is usually not a problem on the rear of a VW T25 but more offset will decrease the clearance between the tyre and rear control arm as will a larger diameter. Please keep this in mind when comparing wheel and tyre combinations that others have used.

Note 7: Syncros and 2wd VW T25s have very different front suspension parameters. Syncros can handle a much wider variation of front wheel widths and offsets. However, if you follow the 2wd front wheel guidelines, you can be assured that the wheels will fit your Syncro as well.
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Titus A Duxass
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Post by Titus A Duxass »

Kev - you're welcome.
Just shout if you need more doing.
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crazymilk
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Post by crazymilk »

Great guide and answered my questions

However can anybody tell me where i can purchase the small ball seat Nuts/Bolts for my 14mm drilled mercedes alloys??

Thanks

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