CU Distributor (again), now not starting :(

[BOXY]

If you're sure you've got the No.1 cylinder on TDC compression, then the timing mark on the flywheel should be lined up with the zero mark on the timing scale, and the rotor arm will be pointing at the little mark on the distributor rim, which will also be the segment on the cap that the no.1 HT lead is connected to.

If all these parts line up then that will give you the correct static timing. The van should start but will need dialling in with a strobe to get everything spot on. If one of the marks isn't right then either the No.1 is on exhaust or the dizzie is 180' out, or the cap is.

The rotor arm on your new dizzie might not "point" in the same direction as your "old" one. The 009 and my CU dizzie were 90 degrees different but if the marks are lined up both work.

[very_bland]

Thanks again Boxy

the 'old' dizzy, didn't physically fit in the right place so I had it turned 180degress, so when cylinder number 1 was at TDC, the marking on the dizzy body was pointing at about 10 o'clock, while the rotor arm was at 4 o'clock, and I just wiggled it about till I got the best (still poor) result (couldn't time it with a gun because it had an insanely high idle, and no tacho to find out what exactly it was 'idling' at)

the 'new' dizzy, now fits proper, and I aligned the mark on the casing with the rotor arm at about 4 o'clock at cylinder 1 TDC. So everything is in order as you say, and it should be firing, but it ain't

One thing i didn't mention, which I don't think will make any odds, but I'll throw out there anyway... the dizzy didnt come with a rotor arm or cap, so I have used the ones from the old (bay/bug) one.

when you say the cap might be on 180degrees out, i presume you mean with the ht leads attached, i.e ht leads are 180 degrees out of their correct order? I currently have it ordered as per Haynes:

3 2
4 1

Annoyingly I can't have another go till after the weekend, but first chance, I shall do the ol' spark plug ark test, see that they are all getting delivery, because I cannot see anything else being the culprit, either the dizzy is not delivering the current (which it should be because the coil, ig module, and dizzy and loom are definately in working order) or the ht leads are shot.

the 'journey' continues

Thanks again!

Billy

[BOXY]

I don't know if you've read through this posting?

http://forum.club8090.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=79992" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bigherb made some really helpful suggestions for checking operation of the dizzie and Hall sensor. Unbolting the dizzie and turning it by hand to check for sparks made life a whole lot easier to fault find without a helper.

[very_bland]

Thankin' you! I shall have a read!

[very_bland]

Right, a quick update! This might be a bit vague, so apologies for that, but hopefully it will be clear enough to spawn a few fresh ideas.

Finally got round to testing the spark, and discovered that the plugs are already caked in black soot (presumably due to the poor carburetor set up) so I cleaned them all up and am definitely now getting a spark on all 4... and she is now firing up, but not idling. I've aligned the rotor arm with the mark on the dizzy at cylinder 1 TDC (0 mark on scale) and it won't even keep going with the help of the accelerator, a turn anti-clockwise on the dizzy it could idle, though it surges (from about 610RPM to 780RPM) so is impossible to time it right with a strobe. That was yesterday! Today, with no adjustments since, it is not even idling, I've fiddled with the dizzy again and i can get it to fire and keep going with help from the accelerator at about 900RPM, but won't idle. Much fiddling and I cannot get any better than that.

So, to the carbs ..... I have as a starting point:

Throttle plate: 0.1mm
Volume screws: 2.5 turns out from closed
Idle screw: 2.5 turns out from closed
Idle mixture screw: 2.5 turns out from closed

I've been playing about with the idle screw to get a better idle, but no joy. I've also been fiddling with the fast idle screws, as I know badly synced carbs can give the symptoms of poor timing, but again, they don't seem to be making much difference.

It smells a LOT of fuel when it is running, there is the occasional pop from the left side of the engine, and even the odd flame coming out the top of the left carb, left side of the engine is also running hotter, the right side is barely getting warm at all, fuel vapor in throat of left carb after running, and white smoke from left exhast.

any helping tips would be much appreciated because I don't really know where to go from here! Just want to get it divable again so it can be tuned up properly by someone with the equipment and know-how.



cheers

[BOXY]

Check you've got the HT leads connected to the right plugs and they're all firmly connected just in case that's stopping it idling smoothly. Why can't you get an accurate reading with the strobe? Any stable RPM should at least give you a "static" mark to give you an idea of where the timing is. When I was setting up the 009 I could start the van up, turn the dizzie with the engine running and watch the timing mark move across the scale from 4'ATDC to mid 20'BTDC. Even with the engine running really rough as long as No1 plug is firing near TDC the strobe should freeze frame the timing mark well enough to see where the mark is. Put a dab of tipex on it to make it easier to see. Check as well that all the fuel solenoids are connected.

If you've set-up the carbs as per your post I'd leave them alone until you've eliminated everything else that might be the cause of the problem.

[very_bland]

Ok cheers Boxy. The HT leads are definately in the right order and plugged in tightly. When it was idling it was pulsing from about 610RPM to 780RPM and back again and up and down in between all in the space of about 4 seconds. I know that it should be 4-6ATDC at 750rpm but say if i can get it at a stable RPM, is there some kind of formula to find out how far along the timing mark it should have advanced? Solenoids are connected, but now you mention it, I might swap them over to see if the symptoms move to the right carb from the left, because the solenoid on the right carb is new... the other is not!


Cheers!

[BOXY]

Once you've got the engine started try to keep it running for at least 10 minutes to get everything up to operating temperature and check the choke flaps are straight up and the idle is about 850RPM. Once the engine is up to temperature adjust the dizzie to give a stable idle and see where your timing mark is. If it's around the 4-6 ATDC mark pull the vac line from the airbox off, blank it to see if the timing advances to 7' BTDC. This will confirm the dizzie is in approx the right place and the vac retard is working. Without knowing for sure your timing is right means any adjustments to the carbs will probably make things worse.

Check all the electrical connections on both carbs. If you switch the ignition on and disconnect & reconnect each one in turn you should hear them click. It doesn't prove 100% they're operating properly but it will confirm if a connection is U/S if one doesn't click. I think there are three connection on the left carb & two on the right??

[very_bland]

Still having trouble. I found the source of the pulsing and struggling idle, the float in the right hand carb was sitting too high, cutting off the valve that allows fuel in permanently, so it was only running on 2 cylinders basically!

So got that sorted, and bit the bullet to get the carbs tuned up right (I am not going to mention the name of tuner as it will sound like i am bad mouthing him, I am not at all, he has been an extremely pleasant and helpful bloke, so I shall call him "Horace" for absolutely no reason other than it is not his name! He's got decades of experience tuning cars, including Aircooled dubs, and a good reputation to boot, so I dont want to compromise that for him)

Chugged vanny to Horace, annoying much traffic on the way, he had a bit of a fiddle got it on a rolling road, discovered 71 healthy horses worth of power, took it for a little test drive and it felt fantastic! fast acceleration, no flat spots, no hesitation or pops or bangs, just a massive grin on my little face. Paid the man and drove home... where it coughed a couple of times at about 35mph but was otherwise fine.

Over the next week, the cough turned to pops and bangs, and by the end of the week the pops were constant while not accelerating, then........... nothing! Turning but not firing yet again! Checked the spark plugs they all look alright, the float level is spot on, spark test.... no spark! I instantly blamed the second hand coil (as it's cheapish to replace) and replaced it... still nothing. So it is either the ignition control unit, or the dizzy i thunk, so out of interest I put the old dizzy back on. And she fired up, won't idle and the acceleration is unbearably slow, but it's an improvement.

So I call "Horace" up, and he says, "well bring it down we will get it tuned up on the old dizzy"
I says, "but hesitation, flat spots etc"
"dont worry about that, its just got to be timed in spot on, then it will run fine"
Sort of goes against all logic for me, surely if its just a case of timing any ol' dizzy in right, every vehicle would have the same one... but i just grumbled in an english sort of submissive manner, but I really dont want to go down that route!

Also when tuning it up, I had set the throttle flap already to 0.1mm as recommended here and everywhere else useful, then he started the carb tune up by playing with those, I told him they were set to what they are meant to be, and he said, nah thats just a starting point.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not being excessively protective of my van, and that you lot will agree with me here not him, but at the same time he has a really good rep, he must have been doing something right all these years!

I really don't know what to do from here... ive got the wrong dizzy on still and he is expecting me to turn up tomorrow for another tune up, I'm massively reluctant. But if i ignore his advice I dont really know where to go from here!

I got the test light out on the correct bits,
Light on:
coil pos and neg terminals
plug that goes into the hall sensor neg terminal
but light off on the pos terminal and middle terminal (whaterver that is) on the hall sensor plug

All electronic gubbins on the carbs clicking when dis and reconnected except the rectangular one on the left carb whos name escapes me!

I really dont want another summer where the van sits there looking sad, collecting that green stuff that grows on derelict cars, while I have to travel everywhere by bicycle!

help/comments/opinions much appreciated as always

cheers!

(and apologies for the dissertation, it wasn't going to be that long)

[BOXY]

If the garage has got a rolling road and a dyno for measuring the horse power I'd be happy to defer to their expertise if it were me. I know the anti-009 majority will disagree with me but don't get too hung up on the right dizzie. All a dizzie is, is a switch that turns on and off four times every engine revolution. The springs and weights control the advance curve and the points or Hall sensor control how long the spark is fed for. If the garage know what they're doing they should be able to adjust the dizzie to give you the best torque and horsepower to suit the van. The Haynes figures for setting up a carb should be used as a guide, not as an absolute. The throttle gap of 0.1mm was calculated by VW when all the jets, needles etc in the carb were new. Plus how do you measure it, was the drill bit calibrated, what was the temperature?

The complete loss of spark does point to either the ECU failing, or its earth coming adrift, or the Hall sensor giving up. Ask the garage to check out the electronic dizzie and black boxes, it'll only take them a few minutes to stick it on and find out if it's kippered. The one I fitted on my van lasted less than a week and the 009 has been back on ever since. If the garage can get your van turning out 70 BHP, the engine running smoothly and a reasonable MPG it doesn't really matter what bits they use.

[very_bland]

Thanks again Boxy! The chap was true to his word, and got it running, I've had a bit of a tweak since as it still wasn't idling when warm and now its driving (and pausing at junctions) beautifully!

Really appreciate all the help and encouragement you've been giving me! It's been emotional

[BOXY]