The current true cost of a total WBX rebuild, July 2014

[silverbullet]

I have been pricing up a "no holds barred" recon engine, built with all-new VW or OEM parts wherever possible. The way it stacks up is terrifying:

Cylinder heads, pair £630
Valve set, TRW £220
Springs, set of 16, £80
Camshaft....£300 (and only one gear wheel size now available)
Barrels x 4, £520
Pistons x 4, £480
Gasket kit £120
Rocker covers £15
Tappet screw set £20
Cam follower set £130
Main bearings £65
Big end set £12 ???
Rod bolt set £70 (import, extra shipping)

Total £2727 Before labour

Or any incidentals like parts shipping, pushrod tubes or pressure switches etc. No waterpump, flywheel or clutch, no delivery cost.

Now ask yourself: What do I actually get in that £1000 so-called "recon" engine?

[lloydy]

Does show the true cost, but aren't heads and pistons normally a reusable thing? They seem to be on diesels, no idea on petrol

[CovKid]

If barrels and pistons are really a grand (combined) I wouldn't even attempt building one - I'd be looking for an alternative engine. Period. Surely they come as a set??

[AdrianC]

Now ask yourself: What do I actually get in that £1000 so-called "recon" engine?

Well, quite.

BTW, am I not seeing head studs in the list?

8 x £15.32 + 4 x £7.02 + 4 x £7.49 = £180.60 public price from BW.

[silverbullet]

I did say it was a no-holds-barred costing exercise!

Those costs are just a parts breakdown of the usual stuff for an otherwise good engine. There's no oil pump or interwarmer which is an obvious omission. Add another £50...

Re: heads, they always seem to be cracked to some degree or other between the seats. The guides are always worn, so to rework them at my local machine shop inc. supply 8 guides and regrinding the seats to correct ovality, you're well on the way to one new head anyway.

Tha AMC/KS head a better casting than the original VW one anyway, it gets round any corrosion problems at the barrel seats jacket seal face plus there is more metal in the common port wall & under the exhaust seat (the VW exhaust port undercuts it for some strange reason) so they are less likely to crack because of local overheating.

VW pistons are stupid money imho, you could have forged ones for less but that's the current price from Classic.
For any other true "classic" car engine rebuild, the rule of thumb is about £1k per cylinder and the 025 is proving no different. Not bad for a one-model engine all things considered.

[Dazco]

That's proper scary

[kevtherev]

Now ask yourself: What do I actually get in that £1000 so-called "recon" engine?

The ones that cost that much are not fully reconditioned like your list.. nor do they purport to be
They are just working engines, that get you back on the road.

Some folks are grateful for that service.

I would fit a subaru engine if it ever came to that sort of madness.

[AdrianC]

Now ask yourself: What do I actually get in that £1000 so-called "recon" engine?

The ones that cost that much are not fully reconditioned like your list.. nor do they purport to be

Really...?
http://www.theengineshop.info/acatalog/ ... 31CXV.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

A replacement unit fitted with
Crack tested crankcase
Reground crankshaft
New camshaft
New main bearings
New big end bearings
New camshaft bearings
New camshaft followers
New oil pump
New barrels
New pistons with new piston rings
New gudgeon pins
New flywheel oil seal
Refaced flywheel
New spark plugs
Remanufactured cylinder heads
New valves
Supplied with fitting gaskets

And all that for £1400... Bargain!

Going by the pricelist above, I make that about £1,800 in parts claimed to be fitted, plus the cost of machining, labour, assembly, etc etc. OK, so the parts prices were for top-quality, "VW or OEM wherever possible", and there may be cheaper out there. And, yes, there's retail parts prices and trade. But, even so, that's a VERY big discrepancy.

They are just working engines, that get you back on the road.

The suppliers certainly CLAIM they're a lot more than "just working engines". "Just a working engine", to me, is a testable second-hand one. NOT one that claims to be reconditioned, with new parts that'd add up to more than the price of the engine.

[silverbullet]

Chinese pistons are pretty cheap. I wouldn't use them.
And from where are they getting these new camshafts?

[kevtherev]

Now ask yourself: What do I actually get in that £1000 so-called "recon" engine?

The ones that cost that much are not fully reconditioned like your list.. nor do they purport to be

Really...?
And all that for £1400... Bargain!

.

really

[tforturton]

So, without wishing to bring a lawsuit down upon our heads, what do you think they ACTUALLY do to their recon engines?

[kevtherev]

Elite fix engines and sell them.
I tried to get a crankshaft and cam shaft from elite...no dice.
I guess they have them for replacement.

I'm also guessing they replace stuff that's worn out with OE stuff that isn't within reason (Bearings etc) from donor engines

[123-jn]

I rebuilt mine for about £800 and that included a second hand AMC head for one side. The camshaft was from TES £130 and the followers were £15.00 each. The pistons were
perfectly serviceable as were the barrels (IT had done 130,000 miles) practically no wear on the barrels and hardly a scratch on the pistons. The crank was still within spec so was polished and new shells fitted. 6 new head studs were required and a small amount of chemical metal on the head seal faces (even a bit on the ANC head) The valve guides were quite worn on the orginal heads but great on the AMC. I threw out one original head that was cracked into an exhaust port but the other althougfh worn was still within spec so I re ground all the valves (also within spec) . small ends were fine, I fitted a heavy duty oil pump and new water pump (which failed after 500 miles, it was from cheap motor factors online) New gaskets and a set of stainless studs and nuts for the case, new piston rings and hey presto. (The 800 included half a stainless exhaust as well)
So actually you really don't need to spend that much unless your engine is alot worse than mine. My mechanic friend tells me that original pistons and valves are better quality than new ones anyway as long as they are within spec.

[Aidan]

quality of the core is everything, one like yours a runner not murdered is great, old stored engines are often rotten inside once sealed water and oil sytems open to air with remnant fluids in

[ghost123uk]

Interesting figures there Ian,. and yes, scary

So, without wishing to bring a lawsuit down upon our heads, what do you think they ACTUALLY do to their recon engines?

I queried this with Elite a while back, during one of the previous times this was discussed. Like "TheEngineShop" they say the following in their Ebay advert =

The engine has a reground crank.
New bearings.
New large volume oil pump not the std one.
A reground flywheel
New camshaft bearings.
New barrels and pistons.
Crack tested cylinder heads.
New valve guides.
New valves.
New push-rod tubes.
New cylinder head studs
A crack tested engine case that is in-line bored for oversize bearings.
New gaskets and seals.
New spark plugs.
All threads are checked and repaired for ease of assembly.
Crank shaft end-float is set by dial gauge.
All engines are tested for oil pressure, compression and leakage before delivery.
We do our best to make the engine as reliable as possible and carry out some modifications to make this so.

When I asked via email how they did this at the price, they did not supply an answer in their reply, but suggested I ring them to discuss it I decided I did not want to go that route for obvious reasons.

Like Kev, I have no issue with their engines. Many folk cannot afford the costs (as per Silverbullet's breakdown) and so a running / repaired engine for around £1,000 is the only choice (other than a gamble on a used one) and not a bad one imho. Obviously we would all prefer a "proper" job, but if money was tight I would go for an Elite one. Apparently, although they do sometimes have "issues", from what I have heard and read they are pretty good with their guarantee.

I know Toomanytoys is considering offering "proper" rebuilt engines. Also, I guess that one does not always need a full rebuild, one might just need a top end job, heads, followers, gaskets etc. If you do not have the facilities (or experience) to do this yourself, finding someone reputable to do it (like Toomanytoys) would be good




p.s. Because of my OCD, I corrected some pretty appalling spelling in that quote from Elites Ebay advert