T25 Trident 1991

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Plasticman
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by Plasticman »

usually do as in "1"
can drill the old body and weld thru into the nice new steel that way as good as zero sanding / grinding after, which ever suits you, or just tack on the outside as the new lower panal will sit back after youve swaged the existing skin, tack 2" then infill and then infill again , less distortion this way,
mm

JonathanR
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by JonathanR »

I'm stuck or else will have to live with less than perfection.
Ground more metal out at each end but reluctant to do more as I'm concerned I may cut too much and the B and C posts fall off :oops:
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So this is it in place. The major issue is that because of the raised metal at either end there is gap along the bottom bend in the sill.
There is also a slight curve which I can push down to cure, although may throw the side gaps out a little.

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Have decided to leave it all outside overnight and hope the fairies sort it.
One option could be to cut 10mm from each end on the bottom bend and add a flange and reweld which will overcome the bump and reduce the gap to allow me to plug weld. But may not look good.
Am not cutting the upper panel until I am reasonably happy with the sill as It gives me a reference point.
Unfortunately I destroyed too much of the old sill to see whether the new panel matches the old.

Hey ho off to mow the lawn and reflect on life.
1991 Auto Sleeper Trident High Top
Water Cooled 1.9 Petrol

Plasticman
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by Plasticman »

right ,nearly there, go back a bit and have another look at ians,midway down this page
http://forum.club8090.co.uk/viewtopic.p ... 0&start=60" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
do not grind any more out of the b and c post bottoms, i did say you had to either swage or make a cut in the bottom lip at either end of the lower sill and move/bend away a bit then you will also have to cut/grind away a bit of the lower sill return edges as they stop it from seating back into the b and c posts , when youve done this you will find the gap along the bottom has closed appreciably carry on till your happy here, then clamp up and weld it,
when you attach the lower side to it it will want to point out a bit at the top , i have curved these panels just enough and also set the lip so when fitted they need a little tension to mate along the top join of the side panel , this help avoid distortion, study the picks a few times and you will get there
mm

JonathanR
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by JonathanR »

Cheers mm - I had focused on the wrong part of the problem should have stopped and given more thought.

Tried a bit of fettling with a hammer but decided it would not be enough (or I was just too cautious) so a 10 mm cut at either end and clamped in place. Reasonably happy although may jiggle the gaps a bit more.
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A bit concerned at the gap (overlap) between the inner and outer sill lips - sorry picture a bit out of focus
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But the edges line up inside and the gap has gone so happy. But may push down a little when I weld.
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Unfortunately my inability to weld in a straight line is matched by an inability to cut in a straight line. Have opened up the side to take the new (mm) panel, fortunately have left some spare metal to allow straightening but think I will use mm's technique and clamp a steel fencing post to the side and cut and grind to that and then use it to weld against and to help alignment.
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Inner sill cleaned up nicely although some rust to treat.
1991 Auto Sleeper Trident High Top
Water Cooled 1.9 Petrol

JonathanR
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by JonathanR »

Was trying to limit the amount of new metal I cut in on the side panel vs using the whole of the new panel which takes me up to the recess. Looking at the picture above, whilst the main panel is good, the left hand seam is toast so by leaving it I will be fighting a seam protection battle for ever more.
1991 Auto Sleeper Trident High Top
Water Cooled 1.9 Petrol

boatbuilder
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by boatbuilder »

Thats where a grit blaster comes in handy. Removes pretty much 100% of the rust right into all the pits. Then after a bit of an acid treatment, I can't see rust returning.
1984 1.9D (AEF Code) T25
My 84 Rusty Project

JonathanR
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by JonathanR »

Cheers Boatbuilder. Tried grit blasting the inside seam on the C post and it came up well just need to remove more internal carpet and will do more and then tackle the outside. Also need to improve my personal protection and propably cover up some of the vans internals otherwise it will be sand in bed for ever more. :roll:

I should classify my posts as learner under instruction. Well two sunny days have gone by and I am working too slowly as I should have had it all sorted by now. Reread metalmickeys thread on Ian's van and studied photos - I find it hard sometimes to work out what I am looking at. Anyway I dithered away on how high to cut and how to key in the edges and eventually went for plan B.

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I thought I would hinge the bottom to make a flap and it would give me access to the back of the fridge and other electrics.

Well it kept the rain out over night :D
1991 Auto Sleeper Trident High Top
Water Cooled 1.9 Petrol

JonathanR
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by JonathanR »

So onwards and upwards. I cut, dithered, cut again and then just to use up the whole day cut a third time.
I put an angle iron across and cut to that. Worked well gave me a straight edge. However I did not cut up to the indentation - I noted this is where mm cuts to and also is the height of the panel he supplies. There was also the thought that coming in close to the indent line would help disguise any imperfections - your eye is drawn to the indent line in the panel. So all indicators were to cut higher. However, my flanger is a bit clunky and the end wont get close the the indentation due to the angles.

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So I measured and recut - by hand this time since I had a straight line to follow. Fitted the flanger and found I still had 5mm spare so cut again - how to make life difficult. I took off quite a thick line of paint and filler since it made a better flange.

To try and get a "continuous" seam and to take the flange right up to the seam edge I ran the grinder up the seam to make a a cut to match the flange. My theory was then to slide in the panel. I cut slightly wrong on the left side so walked away at that point and spent the evening wine tasting and will try to tidy it up when the head stops thumping. I have still to cut in the new panel - a few mm need to come off the top to marry into the existing panel. So we now have this ...

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The right hand seam looking good but theleft hand is a bit big so will try to even up a bit.
1991 Auto Sleeper Trident High Top
Water Cooled 1.9 Petrol

Plasticman
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by Plasticman »

looking good, from the outside you have it too tight to the front (b) post so move back a touch, i see how you have finished the tops, the sort of top needs cutting 45' from the edges so it sits in the jodles youve done and you dont end up with a lump at either end.
mm

JonathanR
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by JonathanR »

Thanks mm. I had looked at how you had finished Ian's and for some reason I went a different route - I think I hoped it would allow me to line up the seams although I now have holes in the corners. Not sure whether I can extricate myself with my vertical cuts. Either way nul progress and a little oops. With apologies to mm for butchering his panel.

Because I rather liked my right hand seam I thought I would tap away the other end to close it rather than moving the whole panel along a smidgin. The existing left seam seemed a little more open than the from front seam and I have just cleaned it a little to look. Because I fiddled or more correctly did a bit of hammering I removed mm's curve on the left seam. So my thanks go to Gartrac Motorsports for shrinking it back again. :D

I have cut down the new panel at the top - not as straight as I would have liked and added the flange to the existing (remaining) van panel, but am failing to make the join a flush fit. In an ideal world the flange should be deep enough for the new panel thickness and it does sit ok in a couple of places but elsewhere it is not flush. As I bend it in to fit it rises up so it might be that I need to trim a little bit more off the the top of the new panel but even where I have cut too much it does not sit right. My blind fasteners help hold in place but don't clamp the joint tight so until I a) achieve a flush fit and b) find the best way to clamp tight for my spot welding I will continue to fettle (or is that fiddle).

So the current situation ... with little change
Left hand seam to show thickness of old seam.
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Right hand seam
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Looking at the gap on flange (bulge is partly due to blind fasteners) Will not use these when I start welding but will add a few weld tacks.

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The flange - hard to see - is there a way to make it a bit deeper

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Looking along the panel
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My main issue is to get the join along the flange at the top of the panel flush all the way along. Tempted to file a little metal off to reduce panel thickness but would prefer to work out what is not working.
1991 Auto Sleeper Trident High Top
Water Cooled 1.9 Petrol

Plasticman
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by Plasticman »

cut 1/16" of the top of my panal as you have it too tight and are not allowing for the radius of the joddled bit, you can modify the joddler to give a greater or lesser lip, you dont want flush ,you want the new metal to sit down/in it a bit to allow for a smear of pod
mm
show side profile pick of yer joddler :shock:

JonathanR
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by JonathanR »

Cleaned up the metal on the flange as I felt thickness of paint was affecting depth and redid. No adjustment on joddler they all seem to have the same step size
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A deeper flange would nice have looked for a tool that would give me a deeper lip but the all seem much of a muchness - I am wondering whether in creating the flange I have altered the angle of the flange. If I push the new panel in to try to marry it up it requires a bit of effort and bows the panel inwards.

This is the where I am - took off another 1/16 +
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If I put my angle iron across it does not push it in so I'm suspecting either the flange should be bent inwards a fraction or I've lost some curve on my new panel.
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Have tried to add a picture showing a slight curve on the horizontal of the existing panel but failing to load.
MM im hoping one of these pictures will produce a Eureka moment and you will be be able to guess where the problem lies.
I then fitted the new panel to the new flange but just let it hang without the sill in place it fits OK although a slight gap on the left due to a slight dent in the old panel- one option might be to weld in like this which will give me the flat join and then bend down onto to the sill but if I get my height wrong it wont marry up with the sill.

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1991 Auto Sleeper Trident High Top
Water Cooled 1.9 Petrol

Plasticman
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by Plasticman »

add the sill clamp up to make sure upper panel is in correct position (ie height) then unclamp from sill and tack the top on , the gap you have with the bit extra cut off looks about right, so tack maybe 8 times and then clamp back to sill to confirm.
i have to do the same everytime.
oh and the joddler , right if you look at the lower face on the left hand jaw, then remove say a mm from this and then same amount on the diagonally opposite face ,this will then give a greater depth of swage , trial and error
mm

JonathanR
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by JonathanR »

Thanks MM. Well I was nervous, partly as I have not welded before and since the panel did not sit right I was worried and then once the welding starts I would be committed. My issues were the flange being a little shallow so the overlap was tight and did not sit flush in places partly due to not being able to fit under the pressure of the curve. I looked at modifying the flanger but could not dismantle and then looked at getting another hand operated one but delivery over the bank holiday was impossible. So decided to go with what I had and .....

Added plug holes along flange. 30 cm centres (approx) but because its a thin strip went for 5.5 or 6mm holes. First mistake was that because I had a mm or two gap at the top I put the holes a little high so when the new panel was put in place you could see the tops of some of the holes.
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I then spot welded along the join - I still manage to miss the spot so a few more than the 8 suggested by MM. I had someone pushing from the opposite side to help close the gap.
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Slightly better on the inside.
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Welds seem a little black but assumed a gas issue.
With the top panel tacked in place I fitted the sill and all looked good to go.
Did a few more tacks to be safe - did not want it all pinging off.
Should mention I did a trial repair on a drill hole in the B post caused when I was looking for spot welds. Promptly blew a hole so had turned the power down a bit and consequently my first few plug weld were not very hot with little penetration.
Power up and with someone pushing down a little from the bottom and pressing a metal plate at the top I randomly welded the plugs. The surprise was as we worked along, the panel slowly pulled its bottom lip in.
Apart from the three low powered welds penetration seemed OK (from a novice perspective). I probably overdid each weld and still missed the odd hole. Belt and braces - I did a few more tacks on the outside but recognise this means more grinding back. Part of me wants to seam weld along the join.

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The best of the bunch
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I then temporarily fitted the sill and all looked OK to me - the left hand side is still a little flat due to me taking out MMs curve. I have yet to tack in the side flanges - not sure how I will plug weld with the gap. May slip in a strip of metal and hammer down to achieve a flange but without destroying the seam.


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Because my holes were a little high I blew through on one but have filled and ground back.
I did not finish the job and was caught out by rain. Should have given a light spray of weld through primer to protect. I then got a call to London yesterday and rain did its damage so today will be spent removing surface rust, welding in the sill and hopefully a coat of epoxy primer.
In cleaning out the seam above the new panel came across another hole which I will patch.
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It was a nerve wracking process but reasonably pleased with the result.
1991 Auto Sleeper Trident High Top
Water Cooled 1.9 Petrol

JonathanR
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Re: T25 Trident 1991

Post by JonathanR »

Yesterday was not a great day. A combination of a failure to engage brain and lack of skill, that overall led to a catalogue of disasters or as my old manager would have said "opportunities".
Used my flanger to add holes to sill, spaced every 35 mm I think. Then fitted in place and started welding. After first two I realised I had not drilled holes out to 7mm (flanger only cuts 5mm). Bit the bullet and chiselled off the two welds - the "opportunity" was that it allowed me to see how good my plug welds were. Both required effort although one had not penetrated that much. So restarted. I spaced out which ones I did alternating ends and middle rather than just a straight sequence. There was a loud bang and two welds popped (panel had been under strain). On closer inspection I found I had lost some of my alignment. Not sure where it crept in as I had pins that kept location the same. Possibly I had the top panel a little higher on rear and when I clamped from inside it lifted the sill flange away from the inner sill leaving a gap which I had failed to check. I had done too many welds to undo so loosened the inner clamps holding the sill to the new panel which released the strain. I then went along the sill flange tapping with a hammer to bring it in again and welded up.
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I have still not perfected my welding skills. Some are better than others. I blow through the edges occasionally, I think I tend to weld each plug too long and build up too much weld. I was also welding on a rather manky lip to the inner sill and worry that I might not have got the strongest of welds. But its holding at the moment and all fixed and solid and I need to remind myself what it looked like before.
But as a consequence I have two plug welds that don't attach - may drill either side and add another weld or add a tack weld inside and outside by the failed plug.

Am now welding inside and again suffering from inconsistency in my technique. Because the panels lost their alignment at the rear I have a slightly larger seam gap which I will try tapping down. Visually it is not that noticeable. But would like it a little tighter. Dont know what the opportunity is on this problem :( .

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I have given little thought to how to finish off where the corners of the panels meet - I have daylight but will probably close when I add some tiger seal to the seam.

To bring an end to a challenging day my daughter took me to see Captain America - Civil War :D
1991 Auto Sleeper Trident High Top
Water Cooled 1.9 Petrol

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