Shower equipment

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silverbullet
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Re: Shower equipment

Post by silverbullet »

Returning to the pump, most seem to be focussed on providing higher flow rates of 10 lpm and above.

Ideally I want about 2.5-3l/min (the same as the cheapo camping showers) to try and get two quick showers from the 20litres of hot water.

Solution would either be to put a resistor in 12v supply to slow the pump or a physical choke in the outlet to restrict the flow.

Unless the system turns out to be capable of making realky hot water, in which case a second carrier of cold water and a twin pump mixer system will be needed.

A friend of mine is going to give some advice based on his marinized Penta calorifier setup, which could be another route worth exploring.
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Re: Shower equipment

Post by silverbullet »

Hozelock 7litre Porta shower could be a lot simpler...and a lot cheaper! I like their stuff for the garden, expect the quality of this to be the same.
Would require decanting of the hot water but it would ration it out and no electrics to fail.
Just a good old manumatic pressure pump.
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Re: Shower equipment

Post by Splurt »

silverbullet wrote: 16 Aug 2020, 17:45 Returning to the pump, most seem to be focussed on providing higher flow rates of 10 lpm and above.

Ideally I want about 2.5-3l/min (the same as the cheapo camping showers) to try and get two quick showers from the 20litres of hot water.

Solution would either be to put a resistor in 12v supply to slow the pump or a physical choke in the outlet to restrict the flow.

Unless the system turns out to be capable of making realky hot water, in which case a second carrier of cold water and a twin pump mixer system will be needed.

A friend of mine is going to give some advice based on his marinized Penta calorifier setup, which could be another route worth exploring.
Complex vs Simple
silverbullet wrote: 16 Aug 2020, 18:16 Hozelock 7litre Porta shower could be a lot simpler...and a lot cheaper! I like their stuff for the garden, expect the quality of this to be the same.
Would require decanting of the hot water but it would ration it out and no electrics to fail.
Just a good old manumatic pressure pump.
The simple solution will do the job for now and if your needs really call for a more complicated design you can design and test at your leisure.

The penta calorifier looks really good but means sacrificing space and adding weight.  If travelling in cooler climates or off season it could be justified but if you are planning on hot summer holidays a cool/luke warm shower will be far more refreshing
 
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Re: Shower equipment

Post by silverbullet »

Valid observations. The calorifier appeals to the engineer as a complete solution but its a bit of a lump to house even at 22litre and still requires a cold filling or feed point.
Whale pumps arent recommended for pumping water over 60 degrees (I am thinking of the lady) so thats another technical challenge.
My Scepter water carrier arrived today so that has focussed my thought processes.
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Re: Shower equipment

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iirc Pete fitted a calorifier to Sharon's Multivan?
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Re: Shower equipment

Post by dokamonkeys »

Ok, I'll admit it now, although it really feels like I should be sat in a circle in a church hall with a name badge on...
Image
but that's the calorifier experiment! When Goran comes back from bodywork, the planned refit incorporates plumbing this into the existing heater circuit.
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Re: Shower equipment

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Now there's a man who knows his chandlery! Found the seller on ebay, good price! 10 litres? I guess with a gravity fed 20 litre on the roof that will give a respectably warm shower capacity of 30 litres with a thermostatic outlet?
Enough for two in the summer at any rate!
Ladies hair washing will have to be done seperately in a bowl!
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Re: Shower equipment

Post by Splurt »

That looks ace.  I see hotpot do mixer taps that double up as shower heads with a concealed extendable hose.  It would really be the height of luxury to have hot water on tap for doing the dishes and showering.  

Quite a bit of plumbing to go along with it, between the engine and then hot and cold to the sink and/or shower.

How does the calorifier get topped up with water after it has been emptied? Is this a manual job?

Yet another addition to the wish list! 
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Re: Shower equipment

Post by dokamonkeys »

silverbullet wrote: 19 Aug 2020, 16:59 Now there's a man who knows his chandlery! Found the seller on ebay, good price! 10 litres? I guess with a gravity fed 20 litre on the roof that will give a respectably warm shower capacity of 30 litres with a thermostatic outlet?
Enough for two in the summer at any rate!
Ladies hair washing will have to be done seperately in a bowl!

Indeed, well that's the plan! It's a 10l capacity and one of the main reasons I went for this and took a chance on the Bulgarian supplier was because it has a stainless steel core as opposed to the more common copper. Less chance of bimetallic corrosion.
As you say, with a thermostatic mixer there should be ample for showering and washing up. Boiling a kettle has been our way for years but travelling over winter means massive condensation build up so this should reduce that.
I'll use the existing dash rear fan switch to operate a solenoid valve to open the flow from the engine and it should be hot in 20 minutes or so. I may even be able to heat water with the bus static off the engine, but we'll see.
Theres also a 600w element for hook up to mains or genny.
Marina living gives us access to all the bits and bobs I'll need. 😉
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Re: Shower equipment

Post by dokamonkeys »

Splurt wrote: 19 Aug 2020, 17:27 That looks ace.  I see hotpot do mixer taps that double up as shower heads with a concealed extendable hose.  It would really be the height of luxury to have hot water on tap for doing the dishes and showering.  

Quite a bit of plumbing to go along with it, between the engine and then hot and cold to the sink and/or shower.

How does the calorifier get topped up with water after it has been emptied? Is this a manual job?

Yet another addition to the wish list! 

The plumbing is pretty simple Splurt. Existing feed and return from the rear heater goes into inlet and outlet of the calorifier coil. It's a pressurised cold water feed system via a 12v Jabsco or Surflo marine pump into the reservoir of the calorifier from the on board cold water storage tank.
This water in the calorifier gets heated by the radiant heat from the internal coil. Same pressure forces water out to the taps when a tap is opened.
It's a pretty common system on narrow boats and I reckon there's enough room for the pump next to the calorifier, plus a couple of small expansion vessels to even out the flow and deal with hot water expansion.
Neil
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Re: Shower equipment

Post by silverbullet »

Ooh I am really tempted to do this. Because our bus has a bulkhead, the space between the front seats is up for grabs, whether a similar sized calorifier will sit in there horizontally or vertically along with a small accumulator remains to be seen.
I could bring pipes though the bulkhead for easy access by the B post. Taps & dry break connections to fill a manually pressurized shower etc
It would put the weight over the front axle and keep it low down too...
Glad that I started this topic now :)
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Re: Shower equipment

Post by AIR_CHILLED »

A subject I have been looking into recently.
Originally I liked the idea of using a heat exchanger from a combi boiler plumbed into the rear passenger pipework. Disadvantage being there is no storage of hot water and if the engine is cold then having to run the engine.
I like the calorifier solution underneath the rear bench seat however there is limited space due to an existing Webasto petrol heater and I don't want to remove the passenger heater matrix.
Next I had an idea of making my own heat exchanger coil using 6mm microbore copper pipe and inserting it inside the Webasto heater outlet.
When browsing Youtube on how to make a simple heat exchanger I discovered someone had wrapped a copper coil around the outside of a diesel heater exhaust. This idea seemed even more efficient as it is using waste heat from the exhaust and won't affect the outlet temperature of the air blown heater when hot water isn’t required but the heater is (thought the coil filled with water would act as a heat sink although without a water flow it should only affect warm up times) This is when I discovered people have been experimenting with EGR coolers as heat exchangers on the outlet of the heater exhaust therefore a readymade stainless steel heat exchanger with water hose connections!
I think with this idea there is a few things to consider:
Making sure the EGR cooler allows the same or an improved exhaust gas flow.
Placing the EGR cooler at the outlet to the exhaust as to not allow hydrocarbons to drop out and condense inside the exhaust. Furthermore lagging the exhaust will help keep the exhaust gases at the correct temperature and improve efficiency.
Adding an expansion tank to allow for increased pressure when  water is not flowing in the EGR cooler.
Lastly I don't know what other affects this may have on the Webasto or similar heaters..?

Just some thoughts, what do you guys think?
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Re: Shower equipment

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I reckon a calorifier plumbed with the heating coil full-flow (in series) would be the best compromise. It would need draining down each winter anyway to prevent frost damage, the coil wont really impede the cab heater performance or warm-up time as its insulated.
Who takes an outside shower in the winter anyway?
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Re: Shower equipment

Post by AIR_CHILLED »

After experimenting with my EGR cooler attached to the end of my 2kw Webasto heater yesterday I concluded not to be taking that idea any further.
There wasn’t enough energy at the exhaust outlet due to the 2.5m length (LHD Westfaila Syncro with Webasto mounted on offside)

I did discover Truma make a 5 litre boiler called a Therme TT2 which is designed to be attached to the heater outlet for the space it takes up I’d rather have a much more efficient colarifier as you suggest Ian.

Surejust manufacture a 5 litre colarifier with the option of two heater coils, 240 & 12 volt heaters. The boiler also has a PRV and thermostatic mixing valve for £300.
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Re: Shower equipment

Post by AIR_CHILLED »

silverbullet wrote:I reckon a calorifier plumbed with the heating coil full-flow (in series) would be the best compromise. It would need draining down each winter anyway to prevent frost damage, the coil wont really impede the cab heater performance or warm-up time as its insulated.
Who takes an outside shower in the winter anyway?
A lot of shower & toilet facilities at campsites have been closed recently due to the pandemic which is why I started to think about a hot water for shower system.

I would like to fit a hot / cold external shower point to replace the Westy shore water connection. Bullfinch make a nice connection for this.
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