Van Not turning over question.

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JeffRoo
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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by JeffRoo »

https://youtu.be/sFuHZZdP7l8 For the ignition switch replacement in case you go down that rabbit hole  :D
84 Caravelle 1.9DG

clone123
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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by clone123 »

JeffRoo wrote:https://youtu.be/sFuHZZdP7l8 For the ignition switch replacement in case you go down that rabbit hole  :D
Forgot about that I had that same problem to see if it is that can someone tell him how to turn it over from the plug with a wire just to see if the engine turns over if it does then he will no its the Ignition switch

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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by pleasestartnow »

So took off the cable between the solenoid and battery and the screw holding it to the terminal block was slightly loose. So tightened that, otherwise cables on that end have no sign of corrosion.

Same, negative terminal on the battery was really tight and no corrosion.

On the solenoid end, the spade terminal was clean, no sign of corrosion or loose connection there. However, on the terminal connected to the battery it does look like there is some corrosion on the square nut and on the eye terminal, not much I can do about it where I am as I don't have a spare terminal head here. So hopefully that's the issue.

I wont spray any wd40 on it as I think thats an insulating material.
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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by Timbur »

Ok I've owned my T25 Caravelle CL 1.9DG Auto for 29 years and had an intermittent starting problem for quite a while. What happens is it will not crank when the key is turned but if I bridge the starter motor solenoid it cranks and starts fine, but a pain doing that under the wheel arch. I cannot predict when it will happen, may not do it for months then for no reason does it. I've tried tracing all loom cables and connectors but found no faults, put meters at appropriate points etc. I've bridged the inhibitor switch, but made no difference. I've fitted a second battery but no difference. I've fitted alternative starter motors but no difference. A while back I fitted a push button switch under the o/s rear wheel arch to bridge the starter without getting dirty or wet and this works every time it won't start on the key.
Recently it has become more common and does not key crank more often than it does, so I am getting fed up with it. I am intent on finding the problem but being intermittent does not help diagnosis, I wish it would fail permanently. Whenever I put a test meter on it, it shows no fault.
So anyone had the same or similar? I've seen the suggestions in this post and those have been covered, except the ignition switch which is next to pursue. Any other pointers please?
ta. Tim
1988 T25 Caravelle CL Auto 1.9DG

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Smiffo
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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by Smiffo »

Timbur wrote: 28 Sep 2021, 19:01 Ok I've owned my T25 Caravelle CL 1.9DG Auto for 29 years and had an intermittent starting problem for quite a while. What happens is it will not crank when the key is turned but if I bridge the starter motor solenoid it cranks and starts fine, but a pain doing that under the wheel arch. I cannot predict when it will happen, may not do it for months then for no reason does it. I've tried tracing all loom cables and connectors but found no faults, put meters at appropriate points etc. I've bridged the inhibitor switch, but made no difference. I've fitted a second battery but no difference. I've fitted alternative starter motors but no difference. A while back I fitted a push button switch under the o/s rear wheel arch to bridge the starter without getting dirty or wet and this works every time it won't start on the key.
Recently it has become more common and does not key crank more often than it does, so I am getting fed up with it. I am intent on finding the problem but being intermittent does not help diagnosis, I wish it would fail permanently. Whenever I put a test meter on it, it shows no fault.
So anyone had the same or similar? I've seen the suggestions in this post and those have been covered, except the ignition switch which is next to pursue. Any other pointers please?
ta. Tim

Sounds like you've narrowed it down to the ignition switch, doesn't it?

Here is a vid to show how to change it:  https://youtu.be/sFuHZZdP7l8

I think this is the part too:  https://www.brickwerks.co.uk/t3-parts/e ... ch-t3.html

Let us know how you get on?​​​​​​​
 
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“It's Easier to Fool People Than It Is to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled.” ~ Mark Twain.

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Robsey
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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by Robsey »

I am surprised that you say that the ignition switch has not been mentioned previously.

A lot of threads about "hard start relays" identify this exact weakness.

They often advise that using a hard start relay takes the strain off the ignition switch, where it's contacts often become burnt and pitted.

The usual remedy is to replace the ignition switch, and if necessary / desired, fit a hard start relay.

So in answer to your question, the ignition switch does indeed appear the most likely issue.

As for the relay - don't fry yourself over that one.
Most people manage fine just by fitting a new ignition switch.
(It is just a belt and braces thing, but also another item to check if problems occur years down the line).
1983 Tin Top with a poorly DF and 4 speed DT box.
1987 Electrics and a DJ engine.
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Timbur
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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by Timbur »

Hi, thanks for the replies and yes it does point to the ignition switch. The only reason I have not gone there before is because I have tested the current at the starter solenoid when it wouldn't start and it was giving a feed. But that was a while ago when it was not so common a problem and I had an easy bypass to get it cranking. Sometimes when it will not crank by the key and I start it by my extra start button and afterwards it will start via the key again. 
I will do a proper ignition switch check before condemning it because I always like to be 100% sure I am changing the right faulty part.
I have also been thinking that there may be a resistance in the wiring or cable connector somewhere.
Yes I will add to this when I get round to doing the job. I've parked it up again for a few weeks after the usual Spain August expedition.
I have heard of people fitting relays but don't want to go there as it should not be necessary.
1988 T25 Caravelle CL Auto 1.9DG

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Oldiebut goodie
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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by Oldiebut goodie »

"The only reason I have not gone there before is because I have tested the current at the starter solenoid when it wouldn't start and it was giving a feed."

I suspect that you tested the voltage rather than the current at the solenoid - two completely different things. You can have the correct voltage but not enough current to operate the solenoid.
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Timbur
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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by Timbur »

Ok I'm back, someone said tell us how you got on. Well I bought an ignition switch, only £10 so why not. Need to use the van so went and got it from storage parking. Wouldn't crank by the key but cranked first time by my remote push button. Got it home and it cranks first time by the key. Leave it a short while, will not crank, so I take the steering column cover off pull the plug off the back of the ignition switch connect it to the new one, no difference, won't crank. When the switch is turned to ign then start I can hear the relays clicking in the glove box board which suggests both switches are working. So before going any further I look in my manuals for a wiring diagram only to find none show the Auto starting circuit or the relays in the glove box. 
I'm still of the opinion I have an intermittent resistance somewhere in the circuit but want more technical info to go searching with.
Anyone know where I can access the stating wiring circuit wiring diagram for my van, 1988 Caravelle CL Auto 1.9 DG. 
Or does anyone know the circuit well enough to describe where all the relevant cables and connectors are on the van?
Tomorrow I'll probably try bypassing the inhibitor switch but have done that before and it made no difference.
Thanks Oldiebut goodie I do know the difference between current and voltage was just guilty of not using the correct terms.

Any help appreciated, Ta. Tim
1988 T25 Caravelle CL Auto 1.9DG

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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by Joelbtdavies »

Jumping on the same bang wagon with a similar problem. Hopefully someone can shed some light, I'm pretty novice mechanic but with even more useless electrical knowledge.

After replacing the clutch on my van I went for a couple short drives all good, and then stopped being able to start. Solenoid clicks once when key is turned but nothing else. Testing with a volt meter I don't get any voltage from the solenoid feed wire. However I can pass a current through the wire when I connect the positive to the end and put the negative on the starter motor housing and engine, but not bellhousing or body panels.

Tracing the wire underneath and back to the glove box I can't see any relays or fuses that the wire travels through, just a couple connecters in the glove box, that then perhaps send a signal back to the back of the van and connect with the pre heat time controller. Could this be the problem?

All around I'm very confused and spent the whole day yesterday getting nowhere. Why am I not getting any voltage on the ignition to solenoid wire?
1982 T25 1.6 JX with early style 4-Speed 
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Smiffo
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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by Smiffo »

Joelbtdavies wrote:Jumping on the same bang wagon with a similar problem. Hopefully someone can shed some light, I'm pretty novice mechanic but with even more useless electrical knowledge.

After replacing the clutch on my van I went for a couple short drives all good, and then stopped being able to start. Solenoid clicks once when key is turned but nothing else. Testing with a volt meter I don't get any voltage from the solenoid feed wire. However I can pass a current through the wire when I connect the positive to the end and put the negative on the starter motor housing and engine, but not bellhousing or body panels.

Tracing the wire underneath and back to the glove box I can't see any relays or fuses that the wire travels through, just a couple connecters in the glove box, that then perhaps send a signal back to the back of the van and connect with the pre heat time controller. Could this be the problem?

All around I'm very confused and spent the whole day yesterday getting nowhere. Why am I not getting any voltage on the ignition to solenoid wire?
Ok, maybe I’m losing the plot here, and perhaps struggling to picture in my mind - I’m certainly no expert on these vans - I’m learning as much as the next man.

With that established, it sounds like you’re saying current won’t pass from starter back to the battery?

I know the gearbox has a hefty Earth wire from near nose end of it, that connects to the chassis frame under the van.

Is that broken, or gummed up with corrosion?

Apologies if I’ve misunderstood.
You won’t be able to miss it - it’s a big thick cable that earths the gearbox to the chassis, and I assume the current from the starter follows that path back to the battery?

Someone smarter than me may chip in lol.


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'89 1.9 DG

“It's Easier to Fool People Than It Is to Convince Them That They Have Been Fooled.” ~ Mark Twain.

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Robsey
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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by Robsey »

As you state - there is usually a braided wire that passes from the gearbox to the body of the van.

Being exposed to the elements, this can easily become corroded where it bolts onto the box or chassis.

And yes - there is a similar earth strap between the engine and the body, and between the battery "-" negative terminal and the body.

The van body is THE link for all vehicle electrics back to the battery negative post.

About 95% of electrical issues are caused by the wiring or it's connections. Of these, dirty, corroded, loose or broken earth links make up a huge majority of the causes of these issues.
This is why there are so many posts about cleaning your earth crowns behind the dash.

So in simple terms, clean and if necessary replace the three main earth straps that I have mentioned above.
Gearbox, Engine and Battery.
Ensure that they are securely fitted, otherwise faults will creap back if things work loose.

As you have disturbed the gearbox to access the clutch, I would also check that you have cleaned and securely refitted all the wires and terminals to the starter motor.
1983 Tin Top with a poorly DF and 4 speed DT box.
1987 Electrics and a DJ engine.
Maybe one day I might get it finished

Joelbtdavies
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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by Joelbtdavies »

Thanks guys, have given the gearbox earth a clean and assessment, but not the others so will do.

Would a lack of earthing mean that I can't get a voltage from the feed wire?
1982 T25 1.6 JX with early style 4-Speed 
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Robsey
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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by Robsey »

The only lack of earthing that would affect a power feed would be for a control relay.

Looking at the US diagrams (Bentley), there is a switch in the auto-transmission selector mechanism.

It is very simple, but it may just need a good clean up.

As you know, the starter should only operate when the lever is in the park or neutral position.

There are 5 main wires from the selector lever mechanism.

Pin 50 which is fed directly from fuse box pin D24.
It is a very heavy red/black wire - size is 6mm
This pin is wired within the fusebox directly to the ignition switch.

Ignition switch is wired to the fusebox at pin B8, there is no fuse.
Oddly the wire from the ignition switch is only 4mm as opposed to the 6.0mm wire going to the selector / inhibit switch. The wire is still red/black.

Pin 50A should go to your starter motor via connectors T3a and T1c.
Colour and size are not mentioned, but I would expect it to be a 6mm red/black cable too.

I suspect that it will be the contacts within the switch for these two terminals that are either dirty, burnt or pitted.

I would expect there to be good continuity between these two terminals when the van lever is in N or P.

The other three wires to the selector lever mechanism are

Terminal 15 (ignition live from fuse 15 - 10 amps).
Black/ yellow wire from fuse box D6 - size is 1.0mm

There is a grey/red wire also from terminal 15 to the selector lever console to provide console illumination.
The console will also have a brown ground wire for the illumination bulbs.

The final 5th wire is from terminal RF.
This is the reverse gear light switch, and goes out to the reversing lights in the rear light clusters.
The wire is black/ blue and is 1.0mm in size.

So places to look are.

The T1c connector near to the starter motor.
Probably in the black junction box in the engine bay.

And then T3a which will be a 3 pin connector somewhere between the selector lever switch and the rear junction box.

Or... is it likely that your ignition switch is getting tired?
I am not sure if you mentioned this earlier.
1983 Tin Top with a poorly DF and 4 speed DT box.
1987 Electrics and a DJ engine.
Maybe one day I might get it finished

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Robsey
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Re: Van Not turning over question.

Post by Robsey »

We have to be a bit careful here as there are two separate vehicles with similar faults, but in different stages or directions of diagnosis.

So have we checked / replaced or fitted securely...
1 - Ignition switch. (Potential burnt or pitted terminals).

2 - All earth straps (potentially loose, dirty or corroded connections)

3 - All starter wires. (Again potentially loose, dirty or corroded terminals).

4 - Have you considered fitting a hard-start relay to take the load off the starter switch.?

5 - Do you have a good healthy battery?
Good output voltage.

6 - For the auto, have we checked, cleaned and ruled out the inhibit / selector switch.
If so, you could try linking the wire from B8 directly to D24 (bypassing the fuse box).

Beware of very high current capacity in these heavy gauge wires.
1983 Tin Top with a poorly DF and 4 speed DT box.
1987 Electrics and a DJ engine.
Maybe one day I might get it finished

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