intermittent starter issue

[CovKid]

Might as well use Tarot cards for all the use that would have done. However, I guess its possible the engine may be too tight or badly timed to turn over on the starter. Would like to see pics of connectors on starter though. Sometimes a combination of minor faults creates one big one.

[VWMAK]

Sounds like I have the same issue. Sometimes when I try to start engine turn ignition and just get a click. Try again and it turns over, sometimes just another click. Usually starts after few tries. Do have the hot start relay installed by previous owner, not sure if this has something to do with it or perhaps attempt to fix issue.

Is this the same fix as others?

Mine sometimes starts perfectly (50%) other times get the clicking of the key over turning in the ignition (4 or 5 times in a row then will start).

Just wondering best fix, or whether a garage may sort this as an easy solution if I'm dropping it in with a few other jobs?

[CovKid]

See: http://forum.club8090.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=142271" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've just added the same observations to starter section in WIKI under a new section called 'typical fixes'. Anyone trying to avoid forking out for a new starter would be advised to read it.

http://wiki.club8090.co.uk/index.php/VW ... rter_motor" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Midge]

Huge apology for hijacking the thread!

I'm suffering similar issues so have looked at the recent forum discussions to get a plan of action together. Just wanted some input from you kind folks, to see if I could try anything else.

My starter was a bit hit/miss - sometimes all good, other times I got a kind of 'laboured whirr' from it.
The 'whirr' did not develop into spinning/starting - eg if I got 'the whirr' then I had to key it back to OFF and try again.
Usually the 2nd or 3rd attempt would get a clean start.
Then it got worse, taking more and more attempts to strike it lucky.

So I fitted a brand new ATP starter motor off eBay - delivered from Germany for £65 all in...

Starting is still very hit/miss - there is no more whirr though, just a click from the starter solenoid then silence.
For every time it starts there could be 10 or 20 failures first, then off it goes.
Once started there is no pattern for success - switching OFF and trying again might work or might produce nothing.

So I fitted a new battery earth clamp/strap to a fresh mounting under the seat.
And a new starter earth strap from the bottom bolt to a fresh mounting on the chassis rail.
Still no good...

I have not changed the starter bush (my bad, I know) but I am NOT getting a binding/slowing of the starter, it's either 100% or 0%

Next actions planned are:
1. Test the solenoid trigger wire to see if it responds to 100% of key-turns (not sure if I hear the solenoid click every time).
2. Test the starter in isolation from the key circuit, on a standalone battery (to rule out internal failure of starter motor).
3. Bypass the ignition barrel to see if hotwire proves more reliable.

Could anyone comment on this and throw any more suggestions into it, as I am running out of ideas.

Massive thanks - we can't go anywhere in Old Rosie until she starts on the button, so really need your help guys.

Cheers, Midge

[CovKid]

If you've replaced starter, either trigger wire is bad, ignition switch wearing out, poor main cables, poor earth, poor connection at either starter or battery, or questionable battery.

You can test solenoid with starter removed or in place (earth clamp to body of starter and briefly touch trigger connection) but don't test motor itself off vehicle because without bush, you could damage it. Other starters don't tend to have that problem but ours do.

A bad bush can create havoc though. It can in extreme cases bind the starter so much, it causes arcing and burning to the commutator.

[ghost123uk]

Just a general tip from me = try connecting a jump lead from a good earth on the engine (alternator bracket is good) to a good earth on the body (the tailgate latch near your groin when leaning into the engine compartment is good) then try it. If it is any better then your engine to chassis earth is suspect. (Note = actually, that earth is on the front of the gearbox to the chassis)

[Midge]

...a bad bush can create havoc though. It can in extreme cases bind the starter so much, it causes arcing and burning to the commutator.

Thanks for the quick response CovKid!

Sounds like replacing the oilite bush is unavoidable for me then - dammit that's the one thing I was hoping to rule out, based on my symptoms.

Unless the 'bad bush' you mention is internal to the starter motor case, so more likely to affect an old starter rather than a new one?

Cheers, Midge

[ghost123uk]

Sounds like replacing the oilite bush is unavoidable for me then - dammit that's the one thing I was hoping to rule out,

I have just read on here about someone using a 12mm (I think) tap to remove the old bush and he said it only took him/her 10 minutes. I can't find the post now = odd When I did mine I used "other" techniques and it took ages with lots of cramp, skinned knuckles and swearing.

p.s. the bush referred to is not the one in the starter motor, that would be too easy

[CovKid]

Yes, bush would affect both. Not saying that IS the problem but it won't help. Certainly if fitting a new starter you MUST replace that bush.

I detest starter problems so really went to town on the charging/starter cables and fitted new with soldered eyelets each end but I suspect yours may be ignition switch or bush (or both).

[Midge]

Yes, bush would affect both. Not saying that IS the problem but it won't help. Certainly if fitting a new starter you MUST replace that bush.

I detest starter problems so really went to town on the charging/starter cables and fitted new with soldered eyelets each end but I suspect yours may be ignition switch or bush (or both).

I guess you mean "if fitting a new starter you SHOULD replace that bush" - certainly wish I had, just to rule it out now...

Logically then (if logic applies here):

If my problem is still apparent with a direct connection to a standalone battery and a 6 inch hotwire, then it's either the oilite bush or an internal fault on the new starter.

If my problem goes away, then oilite bush is NOT the culprit but I should change it anyway (best practice).

...how's my logic?

[CovKid]

Must, should, I think the answer is 'always' if fitting new starter. They're under £2 at GSF.

You shouldn't run starter off the vehicle as it is unsupported. Seen many knacker a new starter doing just that. The two large nuts on starter are effectively bridged when solenoid clicks (or should be) as that then sends power to motor via braided cable. The solenoid is basically a relay. You should be able to test for continuity without powering motor.

Lots on youtube about testing the starter but not sure I can add anymore to what I've already covered.

[Midge]

Must, should, I think the answer is 'always' if fitting new starter. They're under £2 at GSF.

You shouldn't run starter off the vehicle as it is unsupported. Seen many knacker a new starter doing just that. The two large nuts on starter are effectively bridged when solenoid clicks (or should be) as that then sends power to motor via braided cable. The solenoid is basically a relay. You should be able to test for continuity without powering motor.

Lots on youtube about testing the starter but not sure I can add anymore to what I've already covered.

Thanks for all the help CovKid, much appreciated!

I'll test in-situ, with all vehicle-to-starter connections disconnected, using a standalone spare battery of known good condition.
With vehicle main power off I can run the suggested continuity test on the solenoid - good call!
Will use jump leads to provide the main power/earth instead of using the vehicle wiring.
Instead of a key there will be a short-run 'trigger wire' from the main power, that I can flick against the solenoid.

If the starter turns over with every flick I can rule out the bush/starter and chase the fault towards the front - keyswitch or battery conns.
If it's still hit/miss then it must be the bush/starter at fault. We'll see...

THANKS again CovKid, and thanks to the OP for the original thread. Cheers!

[Midge]

I have just read on here about someone using a 12mm (I think) tap to remove the old bush and he said it only took him/her 10 minutes. I can't find the post now = odd When I did mine I used "other" techniques and it took ages with lots of cramp, skinned knuckles and swearing...

The OP (Bobswais) used an M12 tap to do the job in 10 mins - I can only dream... but I thought I read elsewhere to use a rawlbolt as a puller/extractor. Cheers for reminding me to look into it again...

Also Ghost123uk, your advice on good earthing has been taken onboard - first thing I tried and although it didn't cure it I feel better for making the upgrades!

Bobswais - did you make further progress on the fault-finding in the end, hope so

[Midge]

Okay, now I am totally confused

Starter is in-situ on the van and I have disconnected all connections on the starter/solenoid.

That leaves me with 5 possible connections:
Main-power-in (top connector on solenoid)
Main-power-out (bottom connector on solenoid)
Trigger-wire (spade connector on solenoid)
Main-power-linker (braid coming out of starter) - this was connected to bottom-of-solenoid until I disconnected
Earth (bottom mounting bolt on starter)

Without hooking up a battery I get:
Continuity from trigger-spade to main-power-out (despite the braid-linker being disconnected)
Continuity from trigger-spade to main-power-linker-braid (yes, it is still disconnected)
...Obviously given the above I get continuity from main-power-out to the braid-linker despite disconnection
Continuity from Earth to everything apart from main-power-in

That just all sounds way wrong to me!

Solenoid is effectively stuck OPEN and cannot be closed by applying 12v to the trigger-spade as it is already shorted to earth.

It sounds like internal failure of the starter/solenoid unit to me

[CovKid]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-RzcsdFoRQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Just do that but don't run motor more than a second. If you ran it as long as he does, you'll wreck it.