Shifter Rod adjustment

[slowcoach]

Hi all,
I spent a few hours rolling around under the van (new car creeper though, which has saved my back somewhat!), and have replaced the rear wear items in the shifter mech, as shown  here (old ones obviously). it was getting pretty difficult to select 1st and reverse.  All other gears were fine really (its a 5 speed), though a  bit sludgy.




great! i thought, they were in pretty ropey shape.  i had to seperate the front and rear shift rods obviously, to change the middle and rear shifyt rod bushings.  I didnt renew anything at the front end, gear stick wise, though i did discconnect the front rod from the gearstick to swap the little plastic bushings arrowed here:



This front gearsttick mech needs a rebuild, but thats another day.  the boot is ripped, and generally pretty crusty.




id marked the splines for seperating the front and read rods (length and twist), and they went back fine, though i cant 100% garuantee they are *exactly* as before.  but the results arent perfect-  no no no !

gears 2 to 5 are all great and feel quite a bit better.  the stick rests in the 2-3 plane as it did before, and goes in and out of thios gears nicely.  getting over to 1st and reverse is worse than before 

moving across to the 1st/reverse plane, i can feel the detent ball and spring compress (tight, always was, but then that needs rebuilding), and can feel the gearstick bottom hits the side of the shift housing, but then its really hard to pull back into first, requring some force - pressing the stick down like you have to do for reverse helps a bit.  sometimes it just wont pull back at all.  I can imagine the gearstick shift guides are maybe hitting the shift  housing guides maybe(?), and not letting it go back. a live video camera down underneath would be so useful, toi see whats going on



i know the rear bush housing carrier has a slotted hole for adjustment too. these were obviously disturbed when removed.



so question- being that 2-5 work well, does anyone know what the main problem might be?

great post here, but i coulndt find my situation (big thread):
viewtopic.php?f=37&t=97657

thanks in advance

 

[slowcoach]

so some trawling later...

https://wiki.club8090.co.uk/index.php/G ... djustments

it looks like i need to read this 10 times, print it out, jack the van up and read it another 10 times.  then start crawling and swearing again   at least my issue does all seem to be in regards to the splined joint.

its hard to see into the shifter box to check the guide clearances, while its bolted in.. which it has to be

 

[Aidan]

At the back I take it that you have replaced the selector ball lever arm, did you fit a complete genuine one, or reusue your piece of metal and fit a new genuine ball, or fit an aftermarket complete unit ? Some of the aftermarket ones are a bit pooh, splines aren't cut exactly correct so ball is not exactly vertical relative to spline on shaft and the ball diameters can be a bit fat too. Hence the best option may be to reuse genuine metal part but replace the ball only (251 711 131 C from Brickwerks)
so little bit of lube in the cup, rear bush plate loosely fitted to gearbox, cup and ball mated and skirt of boot pulled down over cup then push the cup up fully before locking off the two bolts that hold the rear bush plate to the gearbox
then check again and if necessary do the allignment procedure

[slowcoach]

Hi Aidan,
Thanks for the reply. Just looking over may order, I got the genuine relay lever from brickwerks,

https://www.brickwerks.co.uk/relay-leve ... nuine.html

And this selector cup-
https://www.brickwerks.co.uk/selector-c ... etrol.html

Hope these are alright?

Thanks for the tip on the rear bush carrier bolts, I'll do that. I might have too much grease in the cup- I did take some out, but maybe a bit less will help it seat higher up.

Will try get another set of mole grips today, to ease that adjustment sequence. My wife is very impressed, that i managed to make it worse..

[Aidan]

shouldn't need mole grips just use the wife to move the gearstick once you have loosened the pinch bolt, have her hold stick bang in middle of guides, side to side and front to back, adjust length of linkage if necessary to get it centred front to back then push the ball into box where it moves freely till it touches the spring inside (ie you need pressure to push it further) then lock off the pinch bolt

[slowcoach]

shouldn't need mole grips just use the wife to move the gearstick once you have loosened the pinch bolt, have her hold stick bang in middle of guides, side to side and front to back, adjust length of linkage if necessary to get it centred front to back then push the ball into box where it moves freely till it touches the spring inside (ie you need pressure to push it further) then lock off the pinch bolt

Great- just to clarify, when you say "push the ball into the box", you mean the ball and cup relay lever, on the side of the gearbox, and not the detent ball on the gear stick?

I hadn't realised there was an internal spring in the gearbox too, to push against to get into 1st/reverse. That makes aligning the ball and cup at the back easier to align.

PS why the hell is the detent ball so stiff to overcome? And why is it necessary at all? Wouldn't a spring alone do enough?

[sump]

I'll be watching this post with interest as I have the exact same problem only I replaced everything from the gear lever through to gearbox. 
It made no difference whatsoever, the damn thing is just a difficult to get into 1st as ever When the weather gets better I'll just have to try again.

Good luck with yours though!

[Aidan]

yes the selector shaft is the gearbox is unsprung between 2nd 3rd plane and 4th 5th plane, if you pull the shaft (ball and cup) out fully that is 4th 5th plane, so you push it in till it reaches the spring (effectively) and that is 2nd 3rd plane, set the gearstick so guides are centred front to back and side to side relative to the aluminium guides that are bolted to the box underneath the stick and lock off the centre linkage pinch bolt there and all the gears should be right
this is for 5 speed only

the reason it is a bit "pooh" is because the gearbox was basically a 4 speed design that was converted to 5 speed by adding the extra gear on the front and utilising the reverse selector fork's potential to work in 2 directions instead of one, hence the dog leg, and then trying to make the gearshift work safely in such a way as to limit chance of engaging reverse when coming out of first by mistake so the spring in the gearbox is supplemented by the sprung pushrod at the bottom of the gearstick to throw the stick out of the 1st and reverse plane as you come out of first, and also by putting a block in on the linkage so you have to push the gearstick down to get under the block to get reverse; but on a worn stick the stick can start to drop down and go under the block easily hence the sprung push rod to throw it over to the rest of the forward gears

if you don't like the existing gearshift then Ian Silverbullet's 025Motorsport gear stick set up is good upgrade

[slowcoach]

Thanks for the clarification Aidan, it's really helpful. I'll be crawling under again today or tomorrow , time permitting.

Interesting about the work done to alter it from a 4 speed. It does feel like the hard sprung detent and push down for reverse are the factors in making shifting 'hard work'. As I mentioned, my 2-5 is currently very smooth,so hopefully I can regain the others with a similar feel.

I've been wondering if anyone has removed the detent ball completely, relying just on the spring pressure instead? The spring is plenty stiff to still provide resistance and feel, for when you hit the 2-3 plane. I Realise they wouldn't have designed it this way without a reason, but I can see it still working. There's plenty other oddities ! Any thoughts?

[SyncroMatt]

yes the selector shaft is the gearbox is unsprung between 2nd 3rd plane and 4th 5th plane, if you pull the shaft (ball and cup) out fully that is 4th 5th plane, so you push it in till it reaches the spring (effectively) and that is 2nd 3rd plane, set the gearstick so guides are centred front to back and side to side relative to the aluminium guides that are bolted to the box underneath the stick and lock off the centre linkage pinch bolt there and all the gears should be right
this is for 5 speed only

Aidan, I'm going to take this for a wee diversion if that's ok? But still related to gear change. Syncros seem to be a 5 speed box with a 4 speed linkage up front.

I set mine up as per Bentley using the 23mm block. I find when in neutral that the great lever sits in the 3&4 plane rather than 1&2. Is that correct or do I need to move the selector at the gearbox in until I feel that spring pressure then tighten the pinch bolt? Or is it a matter of personal preference?

Matt

[Aidan]

4 speed and Syncros have additional sprung force on the selector shaft so they default to 3rd 4th plane with the ball pushed all way out in neutral
so in neutral simply loosen pinch bolt, pull gearstick over to the right and lock off the pinch bolt, should be about right as long as the nylon tips on the front linkage and the guide plate in the box under the stick aren't badly worn, if the nylon tips are worn or broken fit a repair kit, the 025Motorsport is the original and best (Ian's hard work prototyping my idea), but wasn't copyrighted so was copied by some cheapskate Americans who in turn were ripped off by their Chinese manufacturers who sold them to everyone

[slowcoach]

ive had another crack at it now, solved a few things and learned a lot.  getting to 1st/reverse plane is still a pig. ill get some help later today (its goinmg to be wet!) which will make it easier. 

when i removed all mine to begin with, im pretty certain i had more than 8-10mm of splines visible for the rod length.  ive got that at 9mm now... i wonder if mine needs it actually longer than the 1 8-10mm spec i keep reading.  seeing into the shifter box housing while its fitted, to check the gearstick is halfway between the fore and aft ally guide blocks is impossible really.  have to just do that by feel.  (a mirror maybe!?) if i removed the spare wheel carrier completely that would help, so i could get my head round.  having a torch shining into the shift box is great though, for seeing left/right positioning.   my work conditions are far from ideal presently

heres another walk through of it, from gowesty- it stresses how small the adjustments need to be (this is for 4 speed):
https://www.gowesty.com/tech-article-details.php?id=178


 

[slowcoach]

update, "SOLVED"! kindof..


was going a bit bananas going through the adjustment process and everything about it checked out. things in alignment front and back, 2-5 working perfectly.  i got the help of Laura to do the gears from above while i got really close to the shift box under the stick, and could see the reverse knockout lug on the stick fouling on the bracket everytime, stopping it from going across.  so thought id remove it and see how it felt.  suddenly everything works perfectly?



so its all working and feels great.. but something is obviously out of whack somewhere. its as if the gear stick is sitting too high, making it hit that bracket every time. nothing looks bent or squashed.  ive not done anything too radical as i see it, as in the wiki it has this:
https://wiki.club8090.co.uk/index.php/G ... djustments
 

Okay, in the box (gearstick box) you will see a lump of metal bolted to the off side, this is the restrictor for reverse - I ALWAYS remove these.
 
The reason is this:
 
The gear stick when adjusted correctly sits in neutral and thats that, the 2/3rd and 4/5th neutral gate is finger pressure either way.
 
To engage 1st you have to use a bit of effort, this is to overcome the dedent spring on the side of the gear stick, then pull back for first. With the reverse lock plate removed, as you move the gearstick forwards toward neutral it will, as soon as you hit the neutral gate be forced by the detent spring towards the 2/3rd part of the gate. Never ever will it want to go straight fwd to reverse, (unless you dont have the detent spring as in you've lost it)

ill drive it like this for a bit and see how it goes.  will probably replace this piece though some time soon, and do the fork tips.



my previous question about removing the detent ball completely is now proved a bad idea, since iot keeps it in the 2/3 plane nicely and is not as clunky as id thought previously (it was infact the fork snagging on that reverse bracket all the time).

thanks to all for the help

 

[Aidan]

that gearstick swivel doesn't look right
it's only the small perpendicular rod on the front gear linkage that should interact with the reverse lockout plate, the gearstick parts shouldn't touch it, the pictures in the wiki show a pretty knackered stick and are confusing as the stick is rotated by 180' in one of them because the front linkage rod isn't connected

[slowcoach]

that gearstick swivel doesn't look right

the 'lever bearing' onion thing in my photo above? its on the top of my hitlist now, but it does seem to function and has little slop in it- i cant see anything different with it from the photos and videos of new parts available.  very happy to be proven wrong though - ill know fir sure when the new part arrives

somethings awry for sure. but its quite nice as it stands, (better than ever, infact) and has got me back on the road (touch wood ).