Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?
Moderators: User administrators, Moderators
- Oldiebut goodie
- Registered user
- Posts: 7294
- Joined: 18 Apr 2008, 01:19
- 80-90 Mem No: 11135
- Location: Eastern Angle
Re: Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?
Gates Barricade is rated for 100% ethanol - it is R14.
1.6D 2019 VW T-Cross
200hp VW T6
1̶Y̶ ̶1̶9̶8̶7̶ ̶H̶i̶-̶t̶o̶p̶ ̶C̶a̶r̶a̶v̶e̶l̶l̶e̶
5̶0̶8̶d̶ ̶M̶e̶r̶c̶
200hp VW T6
1̶Y̶ ̶1̶9̶8̶7̶ ̶H̶i̶-̶t̶o̶p̶ ̶C̶a̶r̶a̶v̶e̶l̶l̶e̶
5̶0̶8̶d̶ ̶M̶e̶r̶c̶
- Oldiebut goodie
- Registered user
- Posts: 7294
- Joined: 18 Apr 2008, 01:19
- 80-90 Mem No: 11135
- Location: Eastern Angle
Re: Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?
You are reading it incorrectly - it states that permeation rates for hoses that are not R14 may be higher than the rate of permeation through R14. I can see how you have misread it though.
"Hose which may be supplied either coupled or uncoupled for use with gasoline, diesel fuel, lubrication oil, or the vapor
present in either the fuel system or in the crankcase of internal combustion engines in small engine applications.
Exposure of these hoses to gasoline or diesel fuel which contain high levels, greater than 5% by volume, of oxygenates,
i.e., ethanol, methanol, or MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether), may result in significantly higher permeation rates than
those listed for 30R14."
"Hose which may be supplied either coupled or uncoupled for use with gasoline, diesel fuel, lubrication oil, or the vapor
present in either the fuel system or in the crankcase of internal combustion engines in small engine applications.
Exposure of these hoses to gasoline or diesel fuel which contain high levels, greater than 5% by volume, of oxygenates,
i.e., ethanol, methanol, or MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether), may result in significantly higher permeation rates than
those listed for 30R14."
1.6D 2019 VW T-Cross
200hp VW T6
1̶Y̶ ̶1̶9̶8̶7̶ ̶H̶i̶-̶t̶o̶p̶ ̶C̶a̶r̶a̶v̶e̶l̶l̶e̶
5̶0̶8̶d̶ ̶M̶e̶r̶c̶
200hp VW T6
1̶Y̶ ̶1̶9̶8̶7̶ ̶H̶i̶-̶t̶o̶p̶ ̶C̶a̶r̶a̶v̶e̶l̶l̶e̶
5̶0̶8̶d̶ ̶M̶e̶r̶c̶
- clift_d
- Registered user
- Posts: 3295
- Joined: 04 Oct 2012, 23:51
- 80-90 Mem No: 11695
- Location: Hackney innit
Re: Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?
Oldiebut goodie wrote:You are reading it incorrectly - it states that permeation rates for hoses that are not R14 may be higher than the rate of permeation through R14. I can see how you have misread it though.
"Hose which may be supplied either coupled or uncoupled for use with gasoline, diesel fuel, lubrication oil, or the vapor
present in either the fuel system or in the crankcase of internal combustion engines in small engine applications.
Exposure of these hoses to gasoline or diesel fuel which contain high levels, greater than 5% by volume, of oxygenates,
i.e., ethanol, methanol, or MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether), may result in significantly higher permeation rates than
those listed for 30R14."
I'm happy to be corrected, but I'm pretty sure I've got it right. That excerpt comes from a section headed: 4.10 Low Permeation, Low Pressure Coupled and Uncoupled Synthetic Rubber Tube and Cover Hose for Small Engines (SAE 30R14), and essentially says that exposure of R14 hose to higher concentrations of ethanol than 5% will give higher permeation rates than listed for the R14 standard.
Oldiebut goodie wrote:Gates Barricade is rated for 100% ethanol - it is R14.
The Gates Barricade hose is 100% ethanol resistant and as a result exceeds the performance for SAEJ30R14, but I don't think the R14 spec requires it to be 100% ethanol resistant.
1988 LHD T25 1.6TD Westfalia Club Joker Hightop syncro
- Oldiebut goodie
- Registered user
- Posts: 7294
- Joined: 18 Apr 2008, 01:19
- 80-90 Mem No: 11135
- Location: Eastern Angle
Re: Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?
I've quoted the piece above. You can only read it one way!
Exposure of these hoses to gasoline or diesel fuel which contain high levels, greater than 5% by volume, of oxygenates,
i.e., ethanol, methanol, or MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether), may result in significantly higher permeation rates than
those listed for 30R14."
Exposure of these hoses to gasoline or diesel fuel which contain high levels, greater than 5% by volume, of oxygenates,
i.e., ethanol, methanol, or MTBE (methyl tertiary butyl ether), may result in significantly higher permeation rates than
those listed for 30R14."
1.6D 2019 VW T-Cross
200hp VW T6
1̶Y̶ ̶1̶9̶8̶7̶ ̶H̶i̶-̶t̶o̶p̶ ̶C̶a̶r̶a̶v̶e̶l̶l̶e̶
5̶0̶8̶d̶ ̶M̶e̶r̶c̶
200hp VW T6
1̶Y̶ ̶1̶9̶8̶7̶ ̶H̶i̶-̶t̶o̶p̶ ̶C̶a̶r̶a̶v̶e̶l̶l̶e̶
5̶0̶8̶d̶ ̶M̶e̶r̶c̶
- Oldiebut goodie
- Registered user
- Posts: 7294
- Joined: 18 Apr 2008, 01:19
- 80-90 Mem No: 11135
- Location: Eastern Angle
Re: Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?
Just looked at my Gates R14 hose - rating is <15g/sq.m. per day. R11/12 can be up to 25g/sq.m. per day for type A, 26 - 50g/sq.m per day for type B and for type C 51 - 100g/sq.m.per day.
That is resistant in my book! It is why I went to R14 as i found that some of Webastos own hose was deteriorating when I was testing with petrol.
Fuel reference types:
Fuel Type Composition by Volume %
Reference Fuel A Isooctane 100%
Reference Fuel B Isooctane 70% + Toluene 30%
Reference Fuel C Isooctane 50% + Toluene 50%
Reference Fuel D Isooctane 60% + Toluene 40%
Reference Fuel E Toluene 100%
Reference Fuel F Diesel Fuel, Grade No. 2 100% (See ASTM D 975 for specification)
Reference Fuel G Fuel D 85% + anhydrous denatured ethanol 15%
Reference Fuel H Fuel C 85% + anhydrous denatured ethanol 15%
Reference Fuel I Fuel C 85% + anhydrous methanol 15%
Reference Fuel K Fuel C 15% + anhydrous methanol 85%
You have twisted this quote around so that it reads completely about face: (You have added " exposure of R14 hose" making nonsensical reading! )
"and essentially says that exposure of R14 hose to higher concentrations of ethanol than 5% will give higher permeation rates than listed for the R14 standard."
Your link for Gates Barricade is for injection hose also - we are talking about carburettor here so it is a different hose.
That is resistant in my book! It is why I went to R14 as i found that some of Webastos own hose was deteriorating when I was testing with petrol.
Fuel reference types:
Fuel Type Composition by Volume %
Reference Fuel A Isooctane 100%
Reference Fuel B Isooctane 70% + Toluene 30%
Reference Fuel C Isooctane 50% + Toluene 50%
Reference Fuel D Isooctane 60% + Toluene 40%
Reference Fuel E Toluene 100%
Reference Fuel F Diesel Fuel, Grade No. 2 100% (See ASTM D 975 for specification)
Reference Fuel G Fuel D 85% + anhydrous denatured ethanol 15%
Reference Fuel H Fuel C 85% + anhydrous denatured ethanol 15%
Reference Fuel I Fuel C 85% + anhydrous methanol 15%
Reference Fuel K Fuel C 15% + anhydrous methanol 85%
You have twisted this quote around so that it reads completely about face: (You have added " exposure of R14 hose" making nonsensical reading! )
"and essentially says that exposure of R14 hose to higher concentrations of ethanol than 5% will give higher permeation rates than listed for the R14 standard."
Your link for Gates Barricade is for injection hose also - we are talking about carburettor here so it is a different hose.
1.6D 2019 VW T-Cross
200hp VW T6
1̶Y̶ ̶1̶9̶8̶7̶ ̶H̶i̶-̶t̶o̶p̶ ̶C̶a̶r̶a̶v̶e̶l̶l̶e̶
5̶0̶8̶d̶ ̶M̶e̶r̶c̶
200hp VW T6
1̶Y̶ ̶1̶9̶8̶7̶ ̶H̶i̶-̶t̶o̶p̶ ̶C̶a̶r̶a̶v̶e̶l̶l̶e̶
5̶0̶8̶d̶ ̶M̶e̶r̶c̶
- Ian Hulley
- Registered user
- Posts: 12659
- Joined: 11 Oct 2005, 08:08
- 80-90 Mem No: 1323
- Location: Wirksworth, Derbyshire ... or at t'mill
Re: Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?
Ok, check engine bay fuel hose every time you open the lid ... both visual and by feel ... replace with the Brickwerks hose EVERY 12 months as part of your pre-MOT service regime.
Fuel hoses should be complete (no filters in the engine bay) and NEVER use the nice shiny braided fuel hose as this leaks out of sight and if you are unlucky the first you'll know of this is when the flames come out of the vents.
Try arguing with that ^^
Fuel hoses should be complete (no filters in the engine bay) and NEVER use the nice shiny braided fuel hose as this leaks out of sight and if you are unlucky the first you'll know of this is when the flames come out of the vents.
Try arguing with that ^^
The Hulley's Bus
1989 2.1DJ Trampspotter
LPG courtesy of Steve @ Gasure
1989 2.1DJ Trampspotter
LPG courtesy of Steve @ Gasure
- 937carrera
- Registered user
- Posts: 3599
- Joined: 05 Apr 2015, 19:29
- 80-90 Mem No: 16333
- Location: N Yorks.
Re: Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?
Ian Hulley wrote: replace with the Brickwerks hose EVERY 12 months as part of your pre-MOT service regime.
Try arguing with that ^^
Easy..... if you are using the Brickwerks hose (good for 100% ethanol/biodiesel) it doesn't need replacing as though it was naff product
https://www.brickwerks.co.uk/brickwerks ... ssurances/
I don't have an intrinsic objection to metal pipes in the engine bay, after all that's what K-Ket systems have and they run at 3-5 bar pressure. Copper might work harden more quickly than aluminium or cunifer, but in practice it's unlikely to happen as the pipes will be jointed using flexible hose.... which is what K-Jet sytems have and the metal pipes are not clamped down firmly.
1981 RHD 2.0 Aircooled Leisuredrive project, CU engine
1990 RHD 1.9 Auto Sleeper with DF/DG engine
1990 RHD 1.9 Auto Sleeper with DF/DG engine
- Oldiebut goodie
- Registered user
- Posts: 7294
- Joined: 18 Apr 2008, 01:19
- 80-90 Mem No: 11135
- Location: Eastern Angle
Re: Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?
Read back on steel injector pipes fracturing due to missing clamps on diesel engines, I know that we are on about petrol engines here and low pressure but there are still vibration aspects to be considered IMHO.
1.6D 2019 VW T-Cross
200hp VW T6
1̶Y̶ ̶1̶9̶8̶7̶ ̶H̶i̶-̶t̶o̶p̶ ̶C̶a̶r̶a̶v̶e̶l̶l̶e̶
5̶0̶8̶d̶ ̶M̶e̶r̶c̶
200hp VW T6
1̶Y̶ ̶1̶9̶8̶7̶ ̶H̶i̶-̶t̶o̶p̶ ̶C̶a̶r̶a̶v̶e̶l̶l̶e̶
5̶0̶8̶d̶ ̶M̶e̶r̶c̶
Re: Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?
I'm going to just replace all the rubber hoses with the Brickwerx current stuff
and believe all the info on the blog.
Simon seems to be a real gent as long as you don't Phone him
Rick
and believe all the info on the blog.
Simon seems to be a real gent as long as you don't Phone him
Rick
____________________________________________
84 CaravelleGL 1.9 DG WBX Bronze Beige Metallic auto
84 CaravelleGL 1.9 DG WBX Bronze Beige Metallic auto
- itchyfeet
- Registered user
- Posts: 12427
- Joined: 23 Jul 2007, 17:24
- 80-90 Mem No: 12733
- Location: South Hampshire
Re: Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?
Cobra88 wrote:I'm going to just replace all the rubber hoses with the Brickwerx current stuff
and believe all the info on the blog.
Simon seems to be a real gent as long as you don't Phone him
Rick
Next go and fit some fuses in the black box for the two unfused engine circuits, the other ( potential) cause of engine fires.
Black Ignition 12V to coil and Red Thermoswitched hearter circuit from stud.
Re: Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?
Done and earthed Carb body to bellhousing directly
____________________________________________
84 CaravelleGL 1.9 DG WBX Bronze Beige Metallic auto
84 CaravelleGL 1.9 DG WBX Bronze Beige Metallic auto
- 937carrera
- Registered user
- Posts: 3599
- Joined: 05 Apr 2015, 19:29
- 80-90 Mem No: 16333
- Location: N Yorks.
Re: Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?
Oldiebut goodie wrote:Read back on steel injector pipes fracturing due to missing clamps on diesel engines, I know that we are on about petrol engines here and low pressure but there are still vibration aspects to be considered IMHO.
I was working on my truck at the end of last year, Cummins 6 cylinder 6 litre, and had to bleed the injector pipes due to a problem with the injector pump. Those steel fuel lines were clamped in place.
And just rethinking, on some K-Jet there are sometimes clamps with rubber dampening sleeves on some of the metal pipes from the metering head to the injectors
1981 RHD 2.0 Aircooled Leisuredrive project, CU engine
1990 RHD 1.9 Auto Sleeper with DF/DG engine
1990 RHD 1.9 Auto Sleeper with DF/DG engine
- Ian Hulley
- Registered user
- Posts: 12659
- Joined: 11 Oct 2005, 08:08
- 80-90 Mem No: 1323
- Location: Wirksworth, Derbyshire ... or at t'mill
Re: Copper Pipe for fuel hoses in Engine bay ?
937carrera wrote:Ian Hulley wrote: replace with the Brickwerks hose EVERY 12 months as part of your pre-MOT service regime.
Try arguing with that ^^
Easy..... if you are using the Brickwerks hose (good for 100% ethanol/biodiesel) it doesn't need replacing as though it was naff product
Nope, it's not naff mate ... peace of mind for the cost of a bit of hose ... priceless.
Cheers, Ian.
The Hulley's Bus
1989 2.1DJ Trampspotter
LPG courtesy of Steve @ Gasure
1989 2.1DJ Trampspotter
LPG courtesy of Steve @ Gasure